Fraser in Mondo 2K and the Return of Cubensis

house.54.258: the tno plan (reid) Sat 14 Jan 95 12:35

fraz, ole buddy, I've always had a problem with your philosophy since
reading an interview you gave to mondo 2000 a few years ago. I feel that
there are realy big holes in your logic. My beef started when you
condemmed rock 'n roll -- dismissed it out-of-hand if I remember correctly.

Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam states: "if you hate something, don't do it too."

your philosophy strikes me as being extremely top-down and imperialistic. I
scoff at your idea that we can impose a global form of music. I don't think
rave music is yet at the level where is does anything but give lip-service
to indigenous music or, worse, rip it off.

as far as a global form of music goes, duh, have you heard of the hand drum.
Pick one up sometime. Play with a *group* of people.

It is not an either/or situation when it comes to revolution. Its like a
balloon expanding and a webwork like ivy. My sister might be up on stage
and my brother might be playing drums for her. My cousin might be writing
poetry or programming.

Two questions: do you have a problem with art and individual expression and
is rave music a proper vehicle for art and change? I mean I haven't heard
anything as compelling as Vedder's lyrics or Patty Smith's Easter album and
that's what turns me on and gets me hot most. Poetry.

Raves are cool and addictive in a big way in my opinion. However, when I
want to hear poetry, rock 'n roll works best for me.

Rave on and spin the black circle.

house.54.259: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Sat 14 Jan 95 14:18


house.54.260: Robert Lauriston (duck) Sat 14 Jan 95 14:37

The universe is beyond such simple categorization. Attributing goodness
or intent to it is propagandistic.

house.54.261: David Dei (megatrip) Sat 14 Jan 95 17:09

African Shamanic Technology = drumming
Balladic Oral Poetry = singing

through in some acoustic timbre, amplification, wind and any other sound
you can sample or generate.

Produce this all in the moment without measure.

This is healing technology. And when you get a balance so that every
single element is in harmony, you have Magic.

The problem with Rock n Roll is its disharmony (ego)
No I don't think I would worship at the Rolling Stones temple of ego
gratification, I mean who does this Jagger dude think he is - the MC from

If we all shut up for a little while, maybe we will hear someone else's

The problem as I see it with the Western MTV concept of sound, is
precisely its idea that you should drown out all opposition. Sing as loud
as you can, and that way you won't hear those evil devil worshipers,
those tempting celestial sounds of EVERYONE ELSE MAKING MUSIC.

WHAT if the only principle governing the universe was a "yes, and..."
principle, where all ideas and realities were relevent AS LONG AS THEY
"yes..and.." in your equation, you were fine. Saying "no!" merely stopped
all the fun, including your own.

The main reason I argue for Rave as an Evolutionary tool, is precisely
its inclusive nature. It is a "yes...and" approach to sound and culture.
So you have the amazing paradox of Trance and Ambiant music being a part
of rave. The one style ridding the silence, the other gaing the silence.

Which is really the idea of a majestic dance, constantly finding and
losing equilibrium.

Right now, the world is not capable of listening and producing, a global
song. We have a babel of cacophony. Those damn rockers think they're it,
but YES AND...those reggae heads think they're it but YES AND..

Point being, no world music without letting go of your control.

will not happen without the relinquishing of control.

I have only a vested interest in Rave, as long as it maintains its
inclusive nature. Which is why liberty of BPM is important. (you mean i
don't have to only listen to official two by four?)

And the lyrics are never important and the melody is never important either.
IF ITS ALL PRODUCED IN THE MOMENT, then its always going to be different.

Its always a different song, a different dance, so why bother
controlling, packaging, naming and so on?

The paradox of late capitalism. Why would I mind if you spread tapes of
the last dance for a quick buck, as long as you said "yes..and...I know
this stuff will change, that it is not an institution like the Rolling
Stones, that I can't say NO to your version of the dance."

house.54.262: David Dei (megatrip) Sat 14 Jan 95 21:35

well, I guess we're paying the price for too good a debate. the
following is my slow painstaking last attempt to answer mc2's points way

FRASER in response to 228 by mc2

mc2: I agree that the best learning is by example, but you're asking
alot of the rave dance floor as a *very* simple set of interactions to be
an abstract model of an extremely diverse and dynamic world, guy. takes a
stunning lack of imagination to require this "kind of breakthrough
device," coupled with a lack of patience, and apparent lack of
determination to follow through with a well-considered nurturing of a
shared focus of communal survival in a diverse ecologies of personalities
and cultures

fraser: you got anthing better, emmst? what's wrong with a
dancelfoor laboratory where everyone is very aware indeed of the sharing
of very limited resources. what's interesting is thsat it brings out the
best in people, all their gentleness, their other-awareness, their group
and individual consciousness etc. how is it a *very* simple set of
interactions exactly? many people of different viewpoints, social
backgrounds, priorities, previous cultural differences etc all sharing
directly together for alimited trial period. I'm auite sure that ravers
come saway with a new meme of cooperation running in their veins - and
take it out into the worle around as a POSIBILITY that they have now seen
actually working.
mc2: It's NOT *about* dominance. That's NOT the point. It's about
plurality, the joy of different *modes* of musical, visual, and cognitive
experience, the adaptive health of mutual influences and interactions.
GBH, Punks Not Dead! And all that. Sweaty, sexy dancing to 70's soul in
underground Brixton dives, Joe Cocker at Wembly Arena, Bach cello
concertos at the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.

fraser: it's About all that is positive and healthy in all these
forms you mention getting together into a movement with enough numbers and
cooperation to actually change something, ptherwise as you die of
pollution or civil war YOUR last fond memory will be that Bach cello
concerto at the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.

mc2: Ach! What about Siouxsie and the Banshees, Laura Nyro, Lydia
Lunch, Marianne Faithful, Tracey Chapman, Shonen Knife, Lotte Lenya,
Laurie Anderson? No mind evolution?!? Man, have you no ears or no mind? To
push for dominance, of any meme, would be a denial of the adaptive value
of diversity.

fraser: what about them? they obviously SO FAR have not managed to
bring all people of goodwill together to actually stop what is a process.
all you're actually talking about SO FAR is maybe golden moments in a
slide off the playing field and into the fossil record." if that's enough
or even nearly enough for you then you've obviously lost touch with Nature
and Life and Hope. and, I'm afraid, it makes you part of the problem
don't take it as an insult, though, we all started out brainwashed by the
dominant competitive cultural mem into which we were born.

mc2: I would not dispute that here, apart from and even in SF and
Colorado etc, it's hardly yet the dominant youth meme but nor would I in
*any* way encourage it. house, rave, techo, are a few small forms of so
*many* valid, stimulating, and living branches of music. Your scheme to
inflate rave to some central contemporary cultural significance is
pathological as it is pathetic.

fraser: nobody disputes particularly that there are " so *many*
valid, stimulating, and living branches of music." But they're obviously
not doing it, are they? We're all, after all, "valid, stimulating, and
living branches of Life on this planet" but we'll all go down together
unless some mega change occurs in our culture to replace the DOMINANT
competitive meme.

mc2: Well, what is *rave* going to do? Till the farms, capitalize
the design of electric-hydrogen vehicles, build the infrastructure of
teaching effective ways of peaceful resolution of painful conflict,
capitalize the economies of scale necessary for photovoltaics, clean up
massive nuclear waste, free Tibet, and cure AIDS?

fraser: we'll till the farms instead of vast combines and killer
chemicals of the agribiz. the capitalisation of the design of
electric-hydrogen vehicles is being PREVENTED by the DOMINANCE of the
competitive lifestyle. your " infrastructure of teaching effective ways of
peaceful resolution of painful conflict" sound depressingly like part of
the problem itself. and, as for 'capitalisation" I say again - it's being

mc2: It's not likely that we'll blow ourselves up. It's not even
likely that, going the way we're going--some ways sane and insane--that we'll
pollute, disease, gas, or greenhouse ourselves out of existence for the next
hundreds of years.
fraser: NO? Well, you obviously just arrived and chipped in your
usual 5 cents worth without reading all the painstaking arguments that got
us to here. I am no longer interested in discussing these important
topics with someone who won't make the effort. look around you, emmsy,
and read the relevant books - this topic is for those who agree that we
have very little time left to save ourselves and wish to discuss (and
hopefully agree) the fastest manner of changing the views of the maximum
number of peole in the minimum amount of time available.

mc2: I'm not convinced that we need such a change, *certainly* not a
revolution. Nature is conservative, she typically adapts by small steps.
That catastrophes happen is also part of nature, and a chilling,
unforgettable, and undeniable experience that Nature is NOT benign.
Neither is humanity.

fraser: I'm afraid your words only reveal the depth of the
competitive conditioning you have been served up for your whole life.
sorry, but the information is all out there if you'd like to check it.
someof us got it back in the '6os when there was a lot less PROOF

mc2: Large groups of people dancing under the stars wreak utter
*havok* on fragile biomes that are nice to dance in like deserts,
grasslands, and meadows.

fraser: that's what some of the press asked me after the Grand Canyon
Mega Rave. all working for newpapers which destroy the last of our
rainforests. my reply at the time was that, unless you could persuade
urban youth to get out into the country (and how else are you gonna get
them there?) how can you expect them to CARE about the countryside. OK,
we temporarily damaged maybe .00000001% of the kaibab Forest in order to
save it, if you like. ever time we WALK in the forsest we flatten a few
blades. the same number just walking in the woods would have destroyed
much more - we at least danced on the same spot!

fraser: RC is NOT a group (within a society) of persons the same age,
social or economic status, ethnic background, etc. and having its own
interests, goals, etc." That's the whole point. It is a focus for all of
these separated sub-cults to come together undera common banner.


house.54.263: a maggot of genteel rearing (jdevoto) Sun 15 Jan 95 04:28

}this topic is for those who agree that we have very little time left to
save ourselves and wish to discuss (and hopefully agree) the fastest
manner of changing the views of the maximum number of peole in the minimum
amount of time available.

Well, no. This topic is for anyone who wants to discuss the subject.

If you want to preach to the converted and get nothing but egoboo in return,
you should find some venue other than a public conference in which to do so.

house.54.264: the tno plan (reid) Sun 15 Jan 95 07:21

regarding ego. Rave culture commodifies and markets ego which is why it is
so hard to strike up a conversation with someone at a rave. First you must
deal with the enormous barricade of. . . . ego. Please don't try and
tell me that raves and ravers have extinguished the ego.

house.54.265: David Dei (megatrip) Sun 15 Jan 95 14:21

cynicism is also a religion. I for one would rather get on with the
dialogue of "what is to be done" than engage in this reinventing the
wheel trip-loop. I think the fact of you participating in the WELL,
given its long social action pedigree, is reason enough to assume we
are unhappy with the way things are, and would like to explore
alternative ideas. If not, then why don't we all forget this WELL thing
and take the conversation over to USENET?

house.54.266: Beyond the Egoboo (phred) Sun 15 Jan 95 18:07

The Well is hardly a place with a social action pedigree. It is a free-
floating debating society with a tendency toward the liberal end of the
spectrum perhaps, but we (thankfully) have a broad range of views here
and so we never seem to get completely into preaching-to-ourselves,
although it must be said that there is a flavor here which is offputting
to some of our folks (and some like boswell have made a career out of
poking fun at that, but no matter).

Go over to Usenet? Go right ahead, but take your hip waders. Moby had
a famous months-long flamefest on alt.rave (which he at least partially
deserved), but quite frankly, I stick to the technical groups on the net
because of the wide bandwidth and imperceptible signal-to-noise ratio
on the general discussion groups.

I'm a bit curious about reid's contention that rave markets ego. If it
does, to what extent does it differ from the conventional music world,
or for that matter from Pepsi, Disneyland and the Well?

My most recent record purchase (yesterday) by the way, is from The Outsiders
released on Mainline and is called "Beyond the Ego", quite nice kickin'
house tracks . . . :-)

house.54.267: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Thu 19 Jan 95 03:53

Since phred brought it up, we thought it might be a good idea to let you
see some extracts of that interview in Mondo 7, 1992. Check out the
accuracy of the predictions.


fraser: ... Without a scintilla of doubt house music is the sound of the
'90s Zippy Youth Culture which'll be booming out of Peking and Baghdad
juke boxes within 5 years. Moscow clubs still play Goth, MONDO's got
Debbie Harry on its cover (what?!), yet there's already a thousand times
more cognitively enhanced ravers in Britain than at the height of the
Hippy or Punk things put together. This time it's going to be a
successful eeevolution - it's got to be!

... Rock'n'Roll tears apart and house puts back together ...The Goddess
starts Her endgame in Britain where nobody's looking, takes America and
Japan by storm, then gets broadcast from there to the whole planet.
That's *smart*!

... Look, ever since they managed to blackball Hippy to death, the correct
mode of Youth (as hope and conscience of the culture) has been
systematically schizophrened from its historical roots. I bet it's even
worse in the US. And we're talking about roots that go back through the
punks, hippies, rebels, beats, bohemians, socialists, romantics,
alchemists, the Shakers and the Quakers, witches, heretics and, right back
in the roots, pagans.


MONDO: Your editorial in the Encyclopaedia Psychedelica International,
issue 12 , "50 million Hippies Burned at Stake" maintains that your
optimism springs from the fact that Western Culture passed its Dark Night
of the Soul when we evolved beyond allowing dissidents from the sick
consensus reality to be physically exterminated. Say more.

fraser: Yeah and, ever since, we pagani - Latin for non-military
personnel, by the way, the Romans were fascist meatheads who *destroyed*
civilisation - have been cooperating and breeding unstoppably, together
with our personal gods and succubi like personal computers. Until now,
just when the Roman Christian Monotheistic Mind State reaches out to grasp
the whole planet by the short hairs, the Altrnative Culture births itself
... Rejoice fellow freedom-worshipping democranauts - the Middle Ages CIA
deleted 50 million whiners and still couldn't snuff the human spirit, and
now it's 200 years too late and *we're rapidly becoming the dominant

MONDO: Didn't Leary predict cows would graze on Times Square by 1970?

fraser: Cosmiculturally , Hippy was the Goddess's First Wave and was never
meant to succeed. It was mostly a necessary balancing reaction against
Techno, a dry run to prepare a solid bed of Alternative experience for
this Wave, the Rave Wave. To seed the culture and alchemise a whole new
generation. While Hippies shook their hips, Ravers have grown up
relatively unrepressed in post-Hippy culture and dance with their whole
bodies, hearts and minds.

The First Wave was also intended to produce the first planetary network of
truly tested pagan elders - "cheerleaders" as Leary now calls them -
rainbow warrior exemplars who've been steeled in humility, patience,
disregard for material reward other than the moneypower that gets things
done, and most important of all *cooperation*.


MONDO: So can we talk about the music? Why 120 beats a minute, for

fraser: Well, house has branched out a lot since 120bpm, especially with
the advent of Ambient house .... But basically 120bpm's the baby's
heartbeat in the womb - which describes the latent house Generation on the
planet very nicely indeed. [Laughter]

Look! The '90s generation ain't the '60s generation, and it don't *sound*
the same either. Rock'n'Roll, as a *sound*, is what grandparents listen
to. house is a faster vibe for a faster era - time's speeding up, coming
to its climax. Imagine 20,000 young Westerners dervish-dancing to 120bpm
all night till the sun comes up. You get the feeling we're all in the
same womb! (Which we are if you stop to think about it).

Everyone just *knew* that something important was being born. Amazing
group solidarity - 20,000 people *feeling* together! If that's not what
the planet needs ...

MONDO: But hasn't Rock'n'Roll played such a crucial role in Youth Culture
that it can never - ?

fraser: It's hoary with tradition, huh? Gotta show the fat old
billionaire some respect? Look, he sold out long ago, so let the dead -
or Disneyland - bury the dead. Rock'n'Roll got totally corrupted and
formalized long ago. For years now it's been just career-conscious rebels
(with managers) shouting "FUCK THE SYSTEM, now gimme me money, get outa me
face, and I'm off to me country manor cos I'm just a musician." As a
social force it's dead. I just wish to hell it would stop screaming and
moaning (punks, see?)

Why should it be so hard to see that things that were useful at one stage
can lose their relevance at another? Yin/Yang - isn't that always the
way, man? There'll always be huge markets for Rock, of course, like
Sinatra, but it's part of history now and socially irrelevant. Even
statistically, after 25 years there obviously can't be many new guitar
riffs left to discover, and anyway what's the point? So move aside, Big
Brother, make way for a new sound for a new species. I don't know, maybe
phoney, blustery old ego-stars always have to be forced off the stage.
Living Rock'n'Roll museum, thank you and goodnight!


house.54.268: seditous twaddle (reid) Thu 19 Jan 95 07:37

the new sound of the electronic heart of the synthetic species of the
machine mind.

oh, fraser, your argument is so seductive to the everyman but you dismiss
every artist and performer as an egomaniac. you're so politicaly correct.

let me get this right: in the new paridigm we are to trade in the time we
spend worshiping our fat rock artists and start kneeling at the altar of the
rave promoter.

people are not equal when it comes to the creation of art. I would rather
give props where props is due instead of to some west coast, under assitant,
rave promoter. Do you mix, spin or create music yourself. Wish there was a
way for you to post it here instead of those old mondo articles. Sort of
resting on you laurels aren't you. Those old newspaper clippings get sp
yellow don't they?

much respect

house.54.269: Robert Lauriston (duck) Thu 19 Jan 95 11:22

}}the '90s generation ain't the '60s generation{{

Pretty ludicrous statement coming from an old hippie like Clark.

house.54.270: RUSirius (rusirius) Thu 19 Jan 95 12:15

hey, did you ger permission to... -)

house.54.271: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Thu 19 Jan 95 14:20

Well, R. U., does he need to? :-)

house.54.272: Find your Inner Barney (rik) Sat 21 Jan 95 19:21

"the correct mode of Youth (as hope and conscience of the culture) has been
systematically schizophrened from its historical roots."

The correct mode of youth? What pompous bullshit.

You know, at some point someone in this form is going to breakout into the
mainstream, sell large numbers of units, and the record biz will coopt rave
culture and sell it back to you. And when it happens, you're going to hear
your art form being used as background music at fashion shows in Milan.

house.54.273: Robert Lauriston (duck) Sat 21 Jan 95 19:34

Oops, too late.

house.54.274: Tom Heckley (tomhe) Sat 21 Jan 95 21:02

as a product of the sixties looking at the ninties all i can say is
unfortuanately it seems most of the ideals have been abandoned in the name
of security, personal, financial and political. your generation has the
torch now and i sincerely hope that rave/house music has the integerity to
withstand the corporate powere elite. by the way this conference is way more
interesting than my usual hame in the grateful dead ghetto.

house.54.275: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Sun 22 Jan 95 05:53

Since phred brought it up, we thought it might be a good idea to let you
see some extracts of that interview in Mondo 7, 1992. Check out the
accuracy of the predictions.

Are we surfing comfortably? Then I'll begin:

Part Two of


MONDO: So how is Acid house different from Rock'n'Roll?

fraser: It's the Paradigm Leap. Rock was about rebellion, opposing the
sick system, about blowing the trumpet to bring down the walls. Right for
the time, and maybe it even did its job (though I have my doubts) but we
don't need that immature destructive attitude today. Now we need (and
it's no longer just English and American, the whole planet's getting
plugged in) music that unites, bring all the cults together again, samples
from very culture on the planet. Which is what house does. Bands like
Happy Mondays and Stone Roses are even recycling Rock!

MONDO: A lot of rockers are going to hate you for this.

fraser: If they're flexible and alive enough, they'll adapt. Because,
you know, even though house replaced Rock as the mainstream in Europe this
summer, it's still in its infancy, even after 4 years. And it'll go on
evolving for the rest of the decade. Posses of truly psychedelic
Beethovens and massmind networked acid jazz orchestras will appear, not
just unbalanced Hendrixes and Morrisons. See, Rock belongs to an age when
we still needed leaders. You can tell a Rock crowd from a house crowd
because the Rock crowd are all looking in the same direction - at the big
fat egos strutting on stages while everyone passively consumes. The house
crowd is crucially different in that they're looking at each other!
Music's back in the hands of the people now, or back in their feet. I'm
amazed you haven't asked me about "live" music yet?

MONDO: Our very next question! Isn't it all a bit impersonal and
unhealthy? fraser: What's personal, healthy or even live about 10000
people passively consuming rehearsed entertainment from 4 presumed "live"
young ants on a stage half a mile away? With house you have 10000 *live*
participants with no stars to worship at all. *Much* healthier! And
talking about health, that's probably the single most important
development from house. It's now hip to *not* drink alcohol! You can't
drink if you're driving and dancing for hours, and anyway it doesn't mix
well with "e" - with ecstasy. But personally, I honestly never expected
to see the emergence of a non-alcoholic generation in my lifetime - and
I'm an optimist! That alone is the single most hopeful development I've
seen in years.

MONDO: I have to agree about that actually. Most of those kids were
drinking fruit juices and mild psychoactives. In a night club! But isn't
the camaraderie and human contact of the rock group - ?

fraser: I keep interrupting you on this rock'n'roll business but imagine
how many times we've gone through these arguments. One thing that proves
the power of house is how much the music biz loathes it and has been
trying to kill it off since it started. house spells the Black Hole for
them, see? All those Super Ego Groups they've invested millions in? And
now kids are making it in garages for themselves and then getting to No 1.
Sometimes even without managers! For Christ's sake!! I mean the fact has
always been that nobody is so much better than the next guy that he needs
a whole fucking stage to *himself*! And besides, be honest you rockers,
in any band there's usually one really committed guy who's constantly
being held back because Fred the fucking drummer forgot, or Dave the
guitarist was always only really in it for the chicks. Now drum machines
and synths have replaced them and the real artist can get on with it. And
Fred can raise chickens like he always really wanted to.

MONDO: But surely the house moement is just Britain's version of the
general acceleration occuring in pockets aound the globe and, particularly
from the more serious scientific point of view, in California? fraser:
*Serious*, get you! Why are our best wholistic mystics and visionaries
always trying to soundlike old-fashioned bloody scientists? Tim dropped
all that when he came over to make the Origns of Dance record with us last
year. Take a closer look at VR and all the computerised multimedia
technologies from a cultural-historical perspective and they can begin to
look dangerously like Super-ALienation. People are now dreaming not only
of retreating inside their own private worlds, they're actually building
them! And then rationalising it on the grounds that they can distantly -
and in the most limited and controlled manner - share the space with a few
treasured companions. Virtual Alienation! The supreme human hell where
even your feeling of alienation might be only *virtually* real. What else
but a severe lack of cosmi-cultural nutrition could trigger such random
cancerously disconnected paths in our Culture! Now I'm not saying it has
to be that way. If we're becoming more open, more complete, cooperative
human beings, then obviously these technos can extend our communication
miraculously. But, without that spirit informing everything we do, we're
really only further reducing ourselves to mere particle-ness.

MONDO: But how can I tell them back in California that the long-awaited
paradigm jump is emerging from a bunch of kids in London?

fraser: Where would you expect a techno-pagan renaissance to start? From
a test tube? Even the Science you talk about would tell you to look for
change triggers where the culture is most dense and turbulent. And Zippy
would predict it won't come from where either pagan or techno is too
dominant - which precludes the US and the Third World. Ask yourself this:
do you *really* think the fate of your life, or our planet, depends on the
next wee insight *somebody else* is going to come up with, or EVEN THAT
YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE? If you're over 25 you know *already*, all of us
do. People don't even bother to argue about the broad outlines of how
things should be. The good '60s Hippies knew it all 20 years ago and
didn't need to wait for Science to come plodding along to prove it. The
only *real* question is: HOW TO CONVEY WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW TO THE

house.54.276: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Sun 22 Jan 95 06:00

Topic 54 [house]: the Zippies [continued]
#274 of 275: Tom Heckley (tomhe) Sat Jan 21 '95 (21:02) 6 lines

as a product of the sixties looking at the ninties all i can say is
unfortuanately it seems most of the ideals have been abandoned in the name
of security, personal, financial and political. your generation has the
torch now and i sincerely hope that rave/house music has the integerity to
withstand the corporate powere elite. by the way this conference is way more
interesting than my usual hame in the grateful dead ghetto.

Welcome aboard, tomhe. The Grateful Dead phenomenon over here is goig to
play a crucial role in what's already starteed ahappeneing. They've got
it all e3;1;1;88;88;1;0xxcept they're looking BACK. Tell 'em at the
Grateful Dead ghetto to check us out. They are definitely going to be
our allies. And PLEASE don't imagine it's got nothing to do with you
now. The whole ZIpyy thing is to unite the tribes as our only chance.
I was 52 last week

house.54.277: A$ (apb) Sun 22 Jan 95 11:47

RE: The Mondo posting by megatrip...

I think what is going on with house music vis-a-vis the Rock industry is a
microcosm of how technology is affecting "instituitional" industries in
general: leveling the playing field.

As mentioned in the article, musicians now have the ability to produce very
good quality (rock, house, jazz, etc) in their garage. It's the same with
Writer's and others: they can create and strategically "post" their works,
and don't have to depend on a publisher or agent (recognizing the economic
benefits may not be as lucrative).

The same thing is happening in corporate America as well. Large industrial
corporations are doing deals with mom-and-pop engineering houses for a key
piece of tech (a considerable amount want to buy out the mom-and-pops, as
their paranoid about their competition getting a hold of the same tech,
instead of focusing on their business).

I also think technology has made the political landscape more horizontal: we
don't have to rely on "institutional media" anymore. The Republicans seem
to understand this much more than the Democrats for now....

house.54.278: Jim Rutt (jimrutt) Sun 22 Jan 95 13:08

dumb question time: what is "house music" ??? I suddenly see references to
it all over the Well, and can't say I have clue what it is or where it came

house.54.279: Tom Heckley (tomhe) Sun 22 Jan 95 13:51

Count me in. This movement speaks to many of my personal beliefs regarding
alcohol, the entertainment industry, the enviroment and our political
culture that is rooted in fear and white male domination. As for Rock and
Roll, I still like it despite it's blemishes. It has an intensity that
speaks to the frustration of modern life that I haven't found in house
music, although I haven't listened to that much house.

house.54.280: Wampeters are NON-NEGOTIABLE (cubensis) Sun 22 Jan 95 19:03

"With our love, we can save the world... if they only knew..."
-George Harrison, singing of youth & flowerpower, 1967's _St. Peppers_

"All this might seem like blatant self-promotion coming from someone else."
-Sarah Ferguson, speaking of Fraser Clark, February 1995 _High Times_

yadayadayada !! and now, for something completely different...

LOVE to everybody, both familiar and new to this diverse and intelligent
virtual community... I've been engaging in nomadic activities for six
weeks, and am now nestled snugly in beautiful Colorado-- thanks for all the
email queries... This mountain energy is something altogether different for
me, and I'm groovin' to it. I just logged my PowerBook on to the WELL after
six weeks offline and expected to download a minor file from this topic --
just six weeks of chat... a little catch-up reading... har har! 5 minutes
at 9600 bps. But WHAT FUN READING! @:-D

Needing to "unplug" for a while (perfect timing, too, as Fraser and his cool
new dynamic duo generate spicy new dialogue here), I've also had some free
time to read _Neurospeak_, _Media Virus_, _Mutant Message_ and now _MOD_
(phat welcome-back-to-freedom beams to Phiber Optik, on ECHO.NYC!) Has
anyone else checked any of these books out?

BTW, while I'm on about books, I would like to cast my vote for
HarperCollins (or HarperSanFrancisco), as MOST PRONOID MAJOR PUBLISHING

} While you guys are here arguing about whose rave is the real rave,
} or thousands of rain forest lands were burned up, more Indian cultures
} destroyed, more hatred and racism grew in the world, millions more were
} opressed, millions more become more alienated from a society and
} and governments that no longer work for them, etc. The question still
} remains; what are you going to do???

right on, owlmed.

There are sooo many threads in the last month that I'd *love* to respond to,
but in the interest of brevity and continuity, I'll say only that I feel
privledged to be a part of the discussions evolving in this topic. The
minds that drop by for a cuppa tea in this virtual parlor are both truly
REAL and truly UNREAL. What a roller-coaster this topic has been! 700-
something posts in a two-part topic linked in house/Rave, Wired, and
FringeWare... still less than a year old. Little did I realize, standing in
Fraser's North London flat last Spring, that the new house conf topic "The
Zippies" that Miga and I began (when the "Ravin' in the UK" topic became
overrun with zippispeak) would grow into such a constructive and stimulating
forum. Okay, I'll stop vomiting goo on everyone...

But, I *am* glad the dialogue continues, as Zippy alliances hybernate
underground. (Even if the conversation seems to be lurching forward along
the winding path of a very tripping person)... No one can accuse us of not
stirring up the great cosmic debate a bit. *I* sure learned a lot in 1994.
May 1995 prove as fresh.

THAT SAID... I found Sarah Ferguson's High Times' article to be funny,
clever, mixed in accuracy... and definitely lop-sided (in that 14
individual, talented and hard-working people carried out and bailed out the
Pronoia Tour for almost two months, but only one person [Fraser] was ever
quoted in the HT article). As Ray said earlier: "Fraser says he
generally content to rest the Zippy case on Sarah's report." Hmmm... could
that be because *Fraser* was the only zippy she any paid attention to?

I maintain that Erik Davis' article in the _Village Voice_ (last July 5th)
is still the defining piece on the zippy meme. Erik is a brilliant writer;
I'd refer everyone to the most recent FringeWare Review (#5: STAY AWAKE)...
where Erik's article _Shards of the Diamond Matrix_ glistens like the
inspired neuro-nugget it is. Ferguson is not even in the same class.

That's not to say she didn't have some great moments. I'd like to share
some more of my favorite quotes from Sarah's February _High Times_ article:

[bracketed comments irresistibly added by me]

1- "Bugging on no sleep, little food and too many drugs, a faction of
the Zippy crew convinced Clark that the promoters were really Freemason
spies out to co-opt his movement."

[heh. heh. heh. heh. she said "Freemason".

Well, here's another clue for you all-- the walrus is Paul!]


2- "At a time when the world's youth are forced to endure their every
passing fad being picked over by marketing analysts in pursuit of the next
Nike ad, the Zippy pitch- combining the entrepreneurial zeal of the yuppie
with the spiritual indulgence of the hippie- sounded dangerously close to a
Fruitopia commercial." [...quenching the global thirst for a zippy tribe,
like neo-newage electrolytes... or somethin'...]

3- "With the anti-Fraser faction [!? you mean 11 communitarian zippies
from the original 14!?] posting conspiracy-laden messages all over the
Internet [um, 'scuse me!?], Clark decided to pull the plug on the Zippies'
Canyon party [but wot aboot the Freemasons, lad?] and and re-direct his
energy towards opening a Megatripolis-style club in San Francisco... Then
[whoops-- there goes responsibility out the window] he caught wind of the
European press, which was hyping the mega-rave as the Woodstock of the
90's... hype had overtaken reality; the show had to go on." [at what
expense? at what expense?]

4- "And if you can't find God within at this hippiefied techno party,
there's plenty of folks willing to act as stand-ins!" [Hey, Fraser is just
a guy! Of course... hey, what's Sequenci up to these days?]

TO FRASER, mate-- welcome to the Net FOR REAL, it seems. I hope you can
stay, and I hope this cyber-commons continues to foster growth, community
(and listening skills) in each and all of us. If the Zippy topic is home-
on-the-WELL to both of us, I guess we're virtual roommates... heh. Just
like old times-- 'cept it's less cramped, and no whining kids! I've had a
blast reading as various WELLbeings adjust to you, and you adjust to them.
People here have a lot to teach, and they have a low bullshit-tolerance-
just what the goddess ordered. ;-) Cool that you have harmonized your
hemisphere of inspired rants with a few practical telecom skills. It makes
posing with laptops for the cameras a bit more comfy, eh? --whoops-- 'kay,
brace yerself, lad--

It would be heartening to see you consistently live up to your self-
definition (from earlier in this topic) as "pagani" ("from the Latin paganus
meaning non-military personnel"), especially in your choice of language.
And I'll keep on a' sayin' this as many times as I hafta: (as Sarah sez in
High Times) when "hype overtakes reality... the show must go on"-- who pays
the price, Fraser? The national forest ecosystem? Or conveniently-
demonized Megatripolis London (the "petri dish") and the Zippy Pronoia Tour
(or, as you called us, the "syringe")? Or some newer medium? You, sir,
remain just as arrogantly messianic as brilliantly tuned-in. That's a
mighty interesting hemisphere-harmony, chief. Even so, (there's that
mystical Clark charm working again) I still think the world of you there,
Fraser-Rainbow-Raver-Chief, and sincerely wish you success with any future

I'll end this upload with a thought (I found it on the Net a long time ago
and can't nail down the source, but it doesn't really need one):

"...all in all, rave is the greatest antidote yet for urban anonymity.
when you open your heart, and trust the whole group you dance with;
when you feel love with everyone, and they return it, a higher
vibration can be reached. dance is the supreme gesture of abandon,
the embrace of the moment, the abeyance of work and the annihilation
of guilt, neurosis, and the burden of the past. no one can write a
*rave manifesto* . . . there is no unified voice to rave culture,
and there are no rules. ranting is the opposite of raving. remember,
the scene is still growing. just keep it going, don't give up hope.
you might think to yourself sometimes, man, the scene is fucked, it's
dying, it's changing, it's shit. just hang in there and change with
the times. don't get caught up in the good old days. they were good
but keep the scene happening all around the world. to rave is to

peaceout sisters and bros--

january 21, 1995
beaver creek, colorado

house.54.281: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 23 Jan 95 03:47

John Bagby! Welcome back. Marvellous posting. I don't suppose I imagine
you any more perfect than you do me, but you're intelligent and fair and
brilliant sometimes and full of good cheer and well intentioned (when not
under pressure) and there ain't many saints around this lil planet (' else
it would be a much better place which it clearly ain't) so welcome home,
captain! We welcome you and all your fine qualities.

NOW ... on the small matters you raised ... While I don't think we should
iron out our dirty linen in public (tho I think it's a plus that we do it
far more than most since we're part of a movement that's more honest etc)
I think you touched on some issues & misunderstandings that are actually
basic to the movement itself and deserve to be discussed in public. OK,
virtual room mate, here's the first -

"I guess we're virtual roommates... heh. Just like old times-- 'cept
it's less cramped, and no whining kids! "

Cubensis, write 100 times: "I shall no longer identify exclusively with
the way competitive-memed 'adult' dominator males see the world, but shall
endeavour to appreciate the more passive/feminine cooperative group view
of things, and especially that of the Child in each of us." ZIppy, Cub,
balance of Male and Female too, right? You've probably repressed the
memory but here's what you said to Zana when one of you guys finally got
round to granting her access to her bags and all those irrelevant
woman-type shit ust after the great Split-Up: "Well, the great Alpha Male
has been replaced!" To which Zana replied: "By *four* alpha males!"
(meaning Des who beats his lady, Pincus who wears armour in bed, plus MTV
film-maker Angus who'd been to Megatripolis twice, and you) She did say at
the time you were so wrapped up in your "military" calculations that you
probably didn't hear. Vis a vis the Parable of the Powerbook and the Mule,
I'm pretty sure you understand that the media meme-strategy the Zippy
pursues has no problem at all innerstanding that the message within the
medium is important too . Remember this important discussion in London?
Which is more important? To spend 5 hours a month recycling and
separating your garbage? Or to spend the same (inevitably limited) number
of hours calling telephone numbers (or getting in Time magazine)
encouraging others to do it? You can't always have time to do both in
this life - I point this out to prevent some smart alec chipping in *that*

"It would be heartening to see you consistently live up to your self-
definition as "pagani" (non-military personnel) 'when "hype overtakes
reality... the show must go on'-- who pays the price, Fraser? The
national forest ecosystem? Or conveniently- demonized Megatripolis London
(the "petri dish") and the Zippy Pronoia Tour (or, as you called us, the
"syringe")? Or some newer medium? You, sir, remain just as arrogantly
messianic as brilliantly tuned-in. That's a mighty interesting
hemisphere-harmony, chief.

OK. The "ecosystem" is a cheap dumb crack which the Arizona forest
rangers actually made too (interesting, no?) and anyway it was dealt with
30 postings back in the topic. "Conveniently demonised Megatripolis"? I
put all my guts, years of experience and creativity into creating that
club and those "Freemasons" stole it from under me when we left. You got
no bread out of this trip - imagine you'd helped set up something that was
now doing great work and making nice profit and you STILL got nothin? How
would YOU feel now? The truth is, as I tell it to friends, that you 4
young alpha males (who had no time for the women and kids and no
understanding of the mystical-passive level of the whole operation - why
do you think Ms Ferguson ignored you?) got carried away by the
mega-possibilities of fame and success that the American Dream can conjure
up. Was it Greed taking over. You guys thought it was YOU that was
making it all happen . 6 weeks on your own brought a reality check.

The guy who stands up and declares that the Emperor Has No Clothes is
*always* dismissed as arrogantly messianic. How could *he* be right and
the powers-that-be wrong?!! I'm happy to let history decide - but
immediate and very medium term history - I'm not going to be turned into
some kind of fraser-lite sitting on the bench avoiding the risk of being
misunderstood and vilified, OK? And I say to everybody else tuning in to
this topic: Never mind all their goddamn experts - speak up loudly what
you think and feel and never mind the herd! Of course don't get arrogant,
but don't back down or think you're not strong enough or that you got no
right either.

One last point for tonight. As you said, Sarah's piece had several
factual errors. You quote me being prepared to let them lie there
unanswered and to accept her overall statement of the case. I still am.
But one fact she did get wrong was that I ever decided not to do the Mega
Rave. Never! You guys' ignorance in squandering some of the Legend I'd
been building for years (anyone who still thinks it all started with
WIRED's piece should ask hirself what made WIRED write it in the first
place!) almost depressed me once or twice to the point of thinking the
Mega Rave might now be impossible, but I never for a single second forgot
or failed to understand the crucial importance of pulling that one off.
Don't you see even yet that words without at least (or as I'd say at most)
"symbolic" action (as Sarah understood) are close to useless?

Anyway, enough. Let's slay the fatted calf, haul out the peace pipe and
let bygones be long gones. Cubensis has returned! (No references to the
Prodigal Son, not even a whisper!) Seriously John, welcome back! Your
posting was a delight and your contributions in the future are much looked
forward to. UP THE EVOLUTION!


house.54.282: Robert Lauriston (duck) Mon 23 Jan 95 11:11

"house music" is a descendent of the disco remix. It's basically sped-up
disco music, except without the complex melodies or sophisticated lyrics.

house.54.283: stupid -------} (reid) Mon 23 Jan 95 11:16

yeah, remember all of those sophisticated lyrics that littered disco?

house.54.284: RUSirius (rusirius) Mon 23 Jan 95 13:06

hey, it's FUN pretending that you're at the center of an earthshaking
movement that's about to mutate & take over the world, isn't it? and that
your personal conflicts and splitups and all that have cosmic evolutionary
and revolutionary import... I know. It's FUN...

house.54.285: Jim Cyr (surfpunk) Mon 23 Jan 95 14:49

i, personally, am learning volumes about that very process from the truly
remarketable examplars who so regularly recycle their pondermonstrosities
herein - i apologize for not going on, and on, and onandon . . . . oy! vey!

house.54.286: Robert Lauriston (duck) Mon 23 Jan 95 14:51

Also, it's "house" as in "house special." Reportedly the form started as
custom remixes in certain hip Chicago nightclubs. These days it's often
a live thing, an expansion of the dual-turntable rap accompaniment into
a complex real-time system using computer-controlled samplers, special
CD players, synthesizers, etc.

house.54.287: Bob Bickford (rab) Mon 23 Jan 95 16:08

Well, I loathed disco (despite being paid to play it for a time) and I
would certainly never describe it as having complex melodies or memorable
lyrics. But I take your (sarcastic) meaning very well: much of what is
called "house" music all sounds very bland and un-distinguished to me.
I didn't heard much that had any musical content at the WOP, for example.
People obviously liked it, though, given how many were dancing to it.

house.54.288: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 23 Jan 95 16:19

Yes and no, RUS. I actually doubt if I'd be doing this if I didn't
believe that. Anyway, it's always more FUN when you're around, and I'm
sorry I can't go on and onandonandon this time

house.54.289: David Dei (megatrip) Mon 23 Jan 95 16:24

Andy got it wrong. No need for 15 minutes when we all get to be heroes.

But a ticker tape NY parade would be nice!

Imagine Newt G confessing on National TV "We were wrong"

house.54.290: David Dei (megatrip) Mon 23 Jan 95 16:57

and I might add that I've seen these kind of guys (white anglo males) confess
its not terribly hard. FW de Klerk confessed live on South African
Television. And by that time, everyone was just so pleased with the way
things were going, that we promptly forgave him, and he got to share the
Nobel Peace Prize, which is nice. So, we get Carter and Bush in to stop
this Gingrich/Quayle presidencyy thing. And the democrats and repbulicans
can retire. A new system using electronic democracy is formed with RU
Sirius as virtual president. He gets to have virtual fun but absolutely
no power. Then we all have a party on the whitehouse lawn, and turn the
Lincoln Bedroom into an Ambient Rooom.

The pentagon would make a great place to house the homeless, and so on.
Just as long as we can get these old farts to smile. No such thing as
evil, just absence of love. In which case Hitler really wanted to be just
a happy-go-lucky artist. Good reason not allow existentialist art into
any place where you could launch a nuclear weapon.

OK Fraser gets to ride on a donkey along with 10 000 other hippies and
the techno kids get to go on the UFO ride via VR. and so on as long as we
can make it a whole bunch of fun....

house.54.291: Jim Rutt (jimrutt) Mon 23 Jan 95 18:06

Is there like a a reasonably representative CD of house? I mean the
descriptions above sound Beyond Dreadful, but hell, I'll listen to anything

house.54.292: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 23 Jan 95 20:19

I'll gladly send you my promo tape, jim :-)

house covers a lot of musical territory now, and like any genre has a lot
of bad or boring stuff. It may only be sped-up disco, but I prefer to
think of it as disco that grew up and got a life, which is what it is.

Other than that, I would have to say I'm giving in now: I agree that this
*is* the best topic on the Well . . .

house.54.293: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 23 Jan 95 20:39

All right, phred! Anybody else care to admit this is the best topic on
the Well? How about you, duck? Where else do you hang out, by the way?

Jim Rut, I have to say it: the absolutely best CD (maybe still) available
has to be SHAMANARCHY IN THE UK - on evolution^ Records (Rough Trade).
In the interests of neutrality (not my strongest suit I'll proudly admit)
I must confess that I was creative producer on it and zlso have the last

Come back, Cubensis. Both Ray and David tell me I was too hard on you -
so I take it all back. OK?

house.54.294: Tom Heckley (tomhe) Mon 23 Jan 95 21:23

Hey, I just stumbled in here after meeting some of you at the WOP, and from
what I've seen this is definately the best topic I've seen.
Keep up the good work.

house.54.295: Jim Cyr (surfpunk) Mon 23 Jan 95 23:17

regarding recent pronoid activities by the San Francisco Police (they are
after all always working in the public interest as all good public servants
do) - What is the (expletive deleted) story?
For those of you now within our borders, with increasing regularity in these
parts, evenings are getting shut down just as they are beginning . . .
i was personally embarassed (i do contribute to these guys salaries) last
week, when our guests were not allowed to demonstrate their craft or in some
cases art because of police activities. Is "it" starting to happen here in
San Francisco, and what are "we" preparing to do about it? and as a side
note, what happened to the ballyhooed return of Megatripolis West?

house.54.296: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 23 Jan 95 23:49

Never put a cop in the mayor's chair, that's what I say.

house.54.297: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Tue 24 Jan 95 01:28

Since phred brought it up, we thought it might be a good idea to let you
see some extracts of that interview in Mondo 7, 1992. The following is
the final extract. Check out the accuracy (or otherwise) of the
predictions, especially now with the Big Crackdown we zippies have been
warning yu all about since we arrived last summer.


MONDO: But doesn't what you've been saying imply an elite who have this
knowledge? And you said: No More Leaders.

fraser: Leadership's outmoded, that's one of the things we're all agreed
on. Even the Individual is relatively outmoded - I hope it's not illegal
to say that in America. You know Communism was bad for humans, but so is
Capitalism and a system based in Competition. Have you noticed that
people from the Eastern Block, while much more prepared than we to condemn
their whole system, still remark that people are friendlier over there.
Think about that.

[INSERT: Couldn't resist inserting an intelligent joke in here. Q: What
has Capitalism achieved in Russia in 5 years that Communism couldn't
achieve in 50? A: Managed to make Communism look good! ]

Hippies in the '60s said: "A plague on both your houses!" The
overemphasis in the West on the individual is actually a bit grotesque.
Posses are the correct survival technique today. And the future will
arrive on your doorstep in the form of a posse of people already living
the new lifestyle. More and more of these posses (and I don't mean tribes
which are separate from the main cultural body) will appear in ever
increasing networks and numbers until it one day becomes obvious that
they've taken over. The real battleground lies in forging a new lifestyle
and culture which will, to put it crudely, swamp and replace what ruled
before it. This isn't linear science, in case you haven't noticed, this
is simple common supersense.


MONDO: All right. Suppose everything you're saying is correct. What
about people who just don't *like* house music?

fraser: house is like any religious experience - a matter of conversion.
I can't think of anyone who loved it the first or even the second time
they heard it. I couldn't *stand* it at first. All those buzzy whiney
bleeps irritated my ears and it all sounded the same - a lot of nothing
going nowhere very very fast. Then one evening I was converted and now I
never play anything else.

MONDO: So? Describe your Damascus! [Laughter]

fraser: It was the second last "Sunrise" before the Authorites stamped
out the massive open-air raves. I remember Tony Colston-Hayter, the "Acid
house King" in those early days announcing "the police have served us
with 12 injunctions but we still got one on. We have the power!"


fraser: I eventually coined the phrase "You can't have a perfect club in
an imperfect society. You have to change society." *If* Thatcher's
Britain had really been as advertised - the early ravers weren't all
yuppies, by the way, there were loads of ex-football hooligans too, but
football hoolies on "e" is a whole other story - *if* it had really been
free and entrepreneurial, instead of monotheistic, capitalistic and
puritanical, it would have welcomed this brash new form of pagan
ennterprise and Britain would now be benefitting from its export to the
rest of the globe.

[This next bit got a bit garbled by MONDO, but there you go.]

fraser: We virtual individualities are merely observer brains on legs
that Goddess has evolved in order to see Her go-forth-and-multiply Self
from more and more angles as She complexifies and prepares for Lift-Off.
It's taken Gaia two million years to grow us, so let's not blow the whole
Dance isn't optional. It's the necessary booting-up process for moving
into the further reaches of the New Culture. Experiment-that-is-Us back to
Square One. But all we are is freelance radicals which She has
comlexified so She can monitor what the hell's going on and going wrong.
When we dance, especially in Nature, we're being de-briefed by the
Goddess. All our observations are digested into the One Mind, sifted and
sorted and matched with other Intelligence Agents' reports, and then
Goddess feeds her tentative conclusions and working briefs back into our
heads via our bodies.

Dance isn't optional. It's the necessary booting-up process for moving
into the further reaches of the New Culture.

house.54.298: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Tue 24 Jan 95 04:03

RAVING ABOUT THE PLANET (Postings 288 & 289)

All right, fellow zippies'n ravers, IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEGUN. We hope
we're wrong, but let's at least watch (and report to each other) with
increased vigilance to see where the following mentioned stuff is coming

I'm afraid what started coming down on New Year's night with the bust of
the Aids Benefit party and various other clubs seems to have continued.
But listen, don't make the mistake that it's some local thing, like phred
saying "never put a cop in the mayor's chair". This is PROBABLY going on
all over the country. Didn't I hear that "HEAVEN" was closed in New York
on New Years night also?

listening, M?) Can somebody post this to other area rave nets so we can
pool our knowledge? (Better believe the authorities are doing it!)

Here's what we heard and put together as far back as when the Zippy
Pronoia Tour To US was in Colorado last July:

The people at the top - I won't say they're in charge because I'm actually
totally convinced that they haven't a clue WHAT is going on down on "the
street" (among the PEOPLE, so to speak) - have only one serious fear as
regards losing their ever-tightening grip on the freedom of the people.
Now brace yourself and prepare (for a change perhaps) to seriously
consider what I am about to say. The only thing that has ever seriously
worried them was the mass cultural upsurge and renaissance of the '60s.
Better believe that they were scared absolutely shitless by that movement
And the one thing they most fear is a repeat of such a phenomenon.
Nothing else could really upset things now.

NOW... What have we zippies been saying since we arrived? That THIS RAVE
PHENOMENON has achieved massive social/political proportions in Britain.

NOW... We put it together when we were in Colorado that the authorities
here in the US have been watching VERY CLOSELY INDEED the rise and rise of
RC (Rave Culture) in the UK and later in Europe and, we were told (forget
Sarah Ferguson's thing about Freemasons in HIgh Times, that was only a
small part of it) that they had realised quickly that the British way of
trying to legislate and then, when that failed, bash it out of existence
WAS NOT WORKING. (Remember also when we launched the Internet Invasion of
the UK that we warned that, with the increasing interconnectedness of
countries these days - New World Order they call it - they were testing
the Criminal Justice Bill in Britain to see if it could run here. And
what hasppened? The very DAY that Bill became law was on January 1st this
year - the VERY DAY the SF police raided the Aids party!)

So.o.o... they had decided either to coopt it (any evidence of that? We
haven't been here long enough to check that out but it MUST be looked at)
and to try to ignore it and contain it. Let 'em have their little dances,
maybe it'll just die out - and many near-ravers told us it nearly had. So
what have we found since we arrived here in SF? A lot of "happy ravers"
fairly freely using a plethora of empty warehouses south of Market with
relatively little problems from the authorities. "What are you zippies on
about? The Rave scene is fine here - we don't and won't have problems
like that here". Right? WRONG! If this really IS the beginning of the
Big Crackdown on what's left of YOUR rights to, let's say, dance on the
grass whenever the whim takes you WITHOUT A GODDAMN LICENCE, then the
truth almost definitely is that "they" have been allowing it to go on
(while watching and infiltrating the scene) in the hope that it would die
out and they'd never have to make a move. My impression (and indeed
prediction, as is well known) is that the Rave Scene would sweep the
planet and, in fact, has continued to grow here and right across the US
and now the authorities feel forced to make a move.

(cont 289)

house.54.299: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Tue 24 Jan 95 04:20


I didn't want to say these things too soon in case I was wrong (Mark Heley
at CLUBLIFE tells me I'm a troublemaker and I've kept telling him that *I*
don't make the trouble - indeed I'm still BEGGING the authorities to
accept that this is a genuine re-flowering of Western Culture from the
bottom up just in the nick of time as the System dissolves all around us,
and the government should be gratefully supporting it, funding it, working
with it - surely it's a trillion times healthier than generation
X/Beaver&MeatBallHead cynicism we've had for the last few years?!?!.

Now I know this is probably a bit much for a lot of you but, if it
actually *is* the beginning of the mass movement to SORT THINGS OUT IN THE
CULTURE that we zippies have been saying for several years in Britian now
and for 6 months here in the US (and we are still waiting for the facts
about any national CrackDown to come in) then you're going to be convinced
soon enough, certainly by the time summer arives.

I wrote the following editorial in NOVEMBER'S CLUBLIFE (only 2 months

The real answer to the question is to ask a further question: why is the
British government .. so afraid of the Rave Spirit? And the very simple
answer is that house music and ecstatic dancing clears peoples' minds of
conditioning, which potentially allows them to envision a much more
perfect and happy way of living together than will EVER be possible within
our present user-unfriendly System. Simple partying and house music would
threaten nobody if there was little wrong with our society. But there is
a hell of a lot wrong!

"As Rave Culture grows (a Culture meaning a lot more than just going to an
occasional party) and as the government tries to repress it, the faults
(in the Old Culture) become more and more glaring. Look at the way Rave
is spreading through the Mid West. By next summer every town in America
will boast its very own Rave posse or two, and each of them will want
(quite naturally) to live the primary myth of house and take their sound
system to the forest and "public land", there to dance barefoot on the
grass. That's when this issue will go nuclear. I know it sounds
unlikely. But every non-zippy British raver thought that, and now look.
100,000 raver demonstrations against the Criminal Justice Bill.

"Finally, if there is to be any hope for us all, and by that I mean the
planet, an issue will arise that is so basic and harmless that it can
unite all the disparate and partial voices of the Alternative Community.
Do we have the right to dance barefoot on the grass whenever the whim hits
us, or don't we? DO WE NEED A FUCKING LICENCE OR DON'T WE?!! At which
point the Rave Spirit or whatever you want to call it will supply the Glue
(as it has done in the UK) that can finally pull all People of Good Will
together, who can all agree that here is an issue where we can't fudge and
mudge. Either you can dance on the grass when you like or you can't. And
as more and more people see more and more events attacked and the mere
fact of having fun criminalised, and begin to think 'What is this country
coming to...?' then watch out, America, a Sea Change will be at hand. YOU

I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But I do not think so. I wish the present
dominators would work with this positive new arising of the Human Spirit
to bring about peacefully the rebalancing of the social structure that is
so clearly necessary, but ... time will tell and has already told in

That is why we came here. The Final Battle for the Human Soul will be
decided here in America. And you, dear Raver or Raver-to-be, are destined
to be on the front line, and already are, whether you yet realise it or

Your planet needs you. Take courage.

fraser. jan, 1995.


house.54.300: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Tue 24 Jan 95 04:22

300 is mine mine MINE!!

house.54.301: Jim Rutt (jimrutt) Tue 24 Jan 95 06:12

Hey megatrip, I like your vision. Sounds not dissimiliar to my fantasy of
The Church of Dionysus. Ecstatic dancing (and red wine) has a proven
ability to transport people into at least a low rent mystical experience.
LAck of real, regular contact with the mystical is what is killing our
society in my opinion. Remember when "drugs" were something interesting and
important, where "set and setting" were paid attention to so as provide a
truly profound expereince of the soul??? Now "drugs" are a problem becuase
so many people use them as something to numb them, not put them in touch
with The River of mystical expereince. Rave on!

house.54.302: Robert Lauriston (duck) Tue 24 Jan 95 09:23

I remember when drugs were interesting and important. That was back when
I hadn't been there and done that. The kids are alright, but you've
gotta wonder about old Peter Pan here.

house.54.303: Jim Cyr (surfpunk) Tue 24 Jan 95 11:25

to roll out an old chestnut - think globally, act locally
during the last "crackdown" many of us were able to attend various board
of supervisors meetings and the pressure of our numbers and reasonable
approach - actual human contact with actual humans - seemed to (for a time)
go a long way towards restraining the powers that be - is it time to go that
route again AND can we organize ourselves into a large spring festival that
would celebrate our emergent spirit and are there active others who would
like to work on such an agenda? and Fraser, please tell us if Megatripolis
has the desire and cooperative vision to pull this off, or are there really
only a few theoretical pundits who post here regularly (safe beyond the
phone lines) - who will walk the talk, and dance the dance in the face of
the rising sun?

house.54.304: p (dpd) Tue 24 Jan 95 13:28

I finally gave a Trance compliation another try while looking at an Alex
Grey painting (cover of Gnosis magazine) and finally got the mind
altering/visionary aspects of both. You can't approach house music the same
way you approach rocknroll any more than you can approach rap the same way.
But I must now admit, it works!

house.54.305: Jim Rutt (jimrutt) Tue 24 Jan 95 14:04

If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a
duck, its probably a constipated old geezer.

house.54.306: let it shine (cubensis) Tue 24 Jan 95 16:29

how's your BMs, {duck}?

house.54.307: David Dei (megatrip) Tue 24 Jan 95 21:52

Leary measure brain function in RPS or realities per second

How many alternate realities are we tracking in this conf?

At some stage we've got to agree there's enough evidence to suggest
GLOBAL HARMONY is the only way we can go. WAR is not going to do it, and
DENIAL is just plain foolishness.

So let's all SCRIPT the next EVOLUTION. Do we get to have a party on the
whitehouse lawn or not. (or where else should we dance on the grass?)

house.54.308: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 25 Jan 95 03:39

Latest info (locally in SF) is that no licences will be issued for
dancing after 2am. They say it's to stop gang violence. All I can say is
that, while Megatripolis was running, *I* never saw a single gang.
Jim Cyr, I really don't think this is a wuestion of real people
comunicating with real people. Well, maybe SF *could* set an example to
the rest of the country, but I'm afraid the Word is coming down from
*much* higher up. Any news from the other cities?

As for the return of Megatripolis try calling our info line: 415-281-KNOW.


house.54.309: Robert Lauriston (duck) Wed 25 Jan 95 11:07

Jim, the rave scene is great for kids. While much of the dance music
is as unimaginative and annoyingly repetitive as the worst disco, some
of it's great. That's true in every era, largely because creative and
talented musicians following their own paths get tagged with the latest
label. That's why I've kept up with youth culture lo these many years
since I was part of it myself.

Youth culture's like a standing wave. Individuals pass through it on
their way from childhood to geezerdom. Those currently in it often
lack perspective about that, which is fine, so long as you eventually
grow out of it.

house.54.310: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 25 Jan 95 13:40

...and is Idealism a youth thang or an old geezer thang? Lets start a thread
listing all the old geezers alive who haven't given up their visions?

Nelson Mandela
(and a whole lot of writers)

And then theres those old geezers who discover life at 65...

house.54.311: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 25 Jan 95 14:36

I wish we'd stop talking about "musicians", which is basically a leftover
from the Rock'nRoll era. What's much more exciting and important is that
Rave returns music to the people themselves. NO MORE STARS (look what
happened last time!) ain't just a slogan.

And at last Duck (who walks and quacks like one) reveals himself as an
"old geezer". Fine, Duck, but since all you have to say is negative to
our ideals, and if you're TOTALLY convinced that you ARE an old geezer
(your confession, not mine) then why not go off and do whatever old
geezers do with other old geezers.
Unless there IS just a single remaining thread of idealism left in you ....?


house.54.312: Robert Lauriston (duck) Wed 25 Jan 95 15:13

To the extent you're talking about anything, it's not idealism, but
ignorance compounded by wishful thinking.

There's nothing new about "no more rock and roll" or "no more stars,"
that's exactly what the kids were saying during the punk era, and what
they've been doing since the garage band was invented.

It's an arousing sentiment, but the fact remains that to make music
worth listening to (or to write words worth reading) takes a modicum of
talent and a considerable amount of practice, even if your instrument
is a DJ console (or a computer keyboard).

Slogans like "this is the era when everybody creates" are good insofar
as they're rallying cries to rouse the lethargic into action, but they
should be recognized as the benign propaganda they are, not taken as
descriptions of actual social trends.

house.54.313: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Wed 25 Jan 95 16:26

{duck}, you make some really great points. The anti-rocknrollstart ethic is
not that new. Of course, it's not that old; the legacy of this meme is
hardly played out yet.

Now everyone should stop arguing about rock and roll versus house music.
Everyone understands intuitively that what is really being evaluated is
the value of a talented/skilled person performing for an audience which
probably does not have a similar level of virtuosity.

house music was music made by and for the club in which it was played. It
was made all over the place; no one said it had to be virtuostic. The
people at the club mixed it themselves.

The dichotomy is easy to see here, and any fool can see that there is
value in both. So SHUT THE FUCK UP with this silly name-calling about them.

{megatrip}, you are sounding an alarm about the oppression of culture and
that is a worthy cause. I think that all who care should take note of
the possibility that a particular slice of youth culture has become a
battleground for our cultures' struggles; there also is a possibility
that there is an international aspect here. The possibility that Rave
Culture may grow (and may already be very large, even amongst adults?)
should be considered, as there is some evidence and no disproof.

However, I hope readers will note that there are many battlegrounds like
this one (the NEA, Video Game and Pop Music ratings labels, etc...) and
that this "sorting" that Fraser mentions is happening all the time.
Fraser likes to get apocalyptic. This is a common tactic. Several times
he's said things like "Well, now that everyone agrees there *is* going to
be an apocalypse tomorrow". Now, no one said "no", but who wants to be
caught saying this in case we really have one :-) Seriously, Fraser
makes hay by assuming the apocalypse and giving RC godlike importance.
That's OK. Just recognize it for what it is: a tactic. Fraser might
believe it, but what it really gets him is attention to himself, and RC.
That's OK too. He's an interesting guy and has a lot of good stuff to
say, and RC may be the next subject of a witch-hunt.

There! I think I've contextualized this discussion a little. If no one
comments on what I've said here, I'm going to kick someone's butt!!!!
Come on, gratify my ego, pay attention to my words and tell me what you

All references to RC are Rave Culture, by the way.

house.54.314: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Wed 25 Jan 95 22:36

OK, Larry, your ego be gratified, and thanks for some fine points and
contextualisation. I'll comment (but let's all kick Duck's butt for not
admitting or denying he has a teeny thread of idealism left and hasn't yet
been turned into the "old geezer" the System planned to make him from the
day he was born - Leary: "You never want to be an 'adult' in this
Society. It means someone who has stopped growing."

"The anti-rocknrollstar ethic is not that new. " All right, here's a
question then: house and RC have been going for about half a dozen years
now. We could all name MANY R&R stars who made it in the first 6 years.
How many house stars could we agree on? I truly doubt there are ANY. As
you say yourself, Larry "The people at the club mix it themselves." I
seriously doubt if I could name a single house hit from the whole of last
year - though my body would instantly recognise many of them on the

Which is not exactly a coincidence. Sure, house uses computers and all
the rest of it - but we could all have just been lying at home like good
factory chickens listening to the stuff - instead we're out meeting each
other at Raves and discussing Society and evolution on topics like this.

[By the way, Duck does NOT make good points. It's easy to do what he
does. Here's an example right off the cuff: "People have always ripped
each other off. People who say we've got to stop ripping each other off
are born in every generation and are probably out to rip us ALL off. I
had ideals when I was young too. Then I grew up. etc etc. " GOT THE
IDEA? I challenge Duck or anyone to go through these 300 odd postings (or
anywhere else he visits) for a single even slightly positive comment by
this self-confessed old geezer. I suggest we all start calling him STUCK
until he 'fesses up to some hope. And if he ignores this again I'm going
to start wondering aloud if he might not be part of that infitration/
spoiler process I referred to in Posting 299]

"Any fool can see that there is value in both." Not quite, Larry. What
you're saying is something like "consciousness evolution and ice cream are
both nice". They're of a totally different order. And that is the whole
whole point all along. A moving song by someone (a star) you'll never
meet about how we need more "lurv" (or "hate" to give the ppunks their
due) cannot truly be compared to thousands of people getting into a
shamanic state TOGETHER on a regular basis, now can it? It is VERY
important that those who are not yet into Rave get out of passive
listening to a medium that shot its bolt about the time Dylan went
Christian, and join the gigantic swell of RC before it's too late. As you
say, it's aleady large and international, even among older people.

"There are many battlegrounds like this one (the NEA, Video Game and Pop
Music ratings labels, etc...) Huh? Pop music ratings? You CANNOT be

"And this "sorting" that Fraser mentions is happening all the time." I've
given lots of examples and on many differing levels - name a few actual
results of all this "sorting" *you're* talking about.

"Fraser likes to get apocalyptic. This is a common tactic." Really? By
whom? RU Sirius, perhaps? You? Duck? I don't wax apocalyptic to draw
attention to RC. I praise RC because, as I've said a hundred times on
this topic alone, it's the only viable means I can see to bring us through
what wise people have been describing as an apocalyptic situation since at
least the '60s. 'Cos remember. It's not that the System is going to
collapse one day soon. It's half way completed already, and acelerating,
as these processes do. Many good people believe it's already too late.


house.54.315: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Thu 26 Jan 95 09:38

Thanks, Fraser. Here's what I thini.

I don't understand your comment about there being no house stars in the last
six years. If you're just trying to differentiate it from other forms of
music, OK, consider it done, but I thought we'd already agreed to that.
What was your point?

And pointless ranting about how one's favorite form is most worthy and
other forms are ice cream is a sign of self-absorption and lack of
perspective. Your comments about rock and roll are surprising. You've
said yourself that the '60s were the most significant uprising in recent
history. Do you believe that pop music was anything but a necessary
cultural force for this uprising? You can criticize it all you want and
few will disagree, but the results speak for themselves. *An answer here is

I'm disappointed that you refuse to assume a perspective here. But that's
OK; you're acting the part of the Zealot. Still, it is disappointing that
you have no interest in noting that a supression of RC would be yet
another battle in a cultural war, and it is disappointing that you poo-poo
the importance of other battlegrounds.

And there you go again with the bombast. Some of your messages state
that RC is the only way to save humanity; others state that you've never
said that RC is the only way to save humanity. This one states that
you've ALWAYS said RC is the only way to save humanity. The Medium is
the Message. Your Medium is garbled. As a Medium, yours is neither Rare
nor Well Done. Hence, your Message lacks coherence. In a follow-up
post, I will compile examples.


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