Invasions and Rejoinders

house.54.216: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 9 Jan 95 03:28

Larry: "I've been to raves and they are...OK. I didn't talk to a single
person other than those with whom I came and no one came up to me with
brotherhood in their eyes and started chatting. For one rave, I was up
on X and I enjoyed it; the others were pretty boring.
I like dancing and dancing and dancing. I like doing it until morning,
sometimes. But not that often. And I'm not alone. Plenty of people
would find raves to be boring. The whole phenomenon has a limited
appeal. I don't think a whole lot of people are ever going to go to
these events.
Hence, I don't see how Rave Culture is going to change the world."

All right, Larry, you've been patiently and humbly asking this from the
beginning and now it's time to start dealing with it. It wasn't worth
dealing with until we'd established some level of agreement. Now it seems
as if most of us have gone on record (even Duck, though I wouldn't want to
embarrass him by accusing him of CARING or brave enough to be putting
himself on the line by being SERIOUS) that the world NEEDS CHANGING and IN
FAINTEST CHANCE of achieving this (you'd agree about the timescale,
owlmed, I assume?)

What follows will be no definitive statement. I've been writing, thinking
and ACTING over this stuff for 6 or 7 years now and there's no way of
summing it all up - if you get it in a good one liner (like, say, DEMAND
AN ALTERED STATE) people just accuse you of being after a fast buck or
But I promise you this: as long as I have time and modem this
Topic discussion will continue exploring this very question for the rest
of the year and is hopefully already helping form a CULTURE of people (and
habit even) which can begin to replace the Old Dying Culture. For
remember our claims are about RC, not just Raving.

OK. 3 and a half points to kick this off; Here's one way I've been
describing it for years now and I apologise if some of you are already
familiar with it. I lived through the Hippy Renaissance of the '60s. Now,
despite most of what you've been told, that was the greatest social
revolution in human history, of much more significance than, say, the
Enlightenment or the American War of Independence. Now, of course, the
authorities were so shit-shocked by the sudden appearance and mass appeal
of such a titanic Cultural Explosion (one that was even stealing their
very own children away from them, and officially sponsored thinktanks like
Ellsberg's at MIT were jumping ship and spilling the beans publicly on the
advice of their fucking consciences) that they've been slandering and
trivialising that most beautiful, moving and inspiring cultural upsurge
for 2 decades now. So, until we can bring about here in America synergising zippy fusion of Raver & Hippy (Rainbow Ravers as we've started
defining Zippy) you'll just have to take my word for it that you have been
fed nothing but lies about what really happened. And not only by the
authorites although you surely must hae wondered why they keep attacking
something that happened so long ago} Why are they always putting the boot
in, eh I could go on and on and will probably be forced to, but for the
moment take my word for it and listen to one of the Conclusions we came to
at the time and which I, for one, have never for a second doubted since
that time.

CONCLUSION ONE: First, both Capitalism and Communism (which was only the
shadow of the first - yet another form of monotheism, see?) were
user-unfriendly systems which threatened both the rulers and the ruled and
constituted the greatest threats WoMankind faced. They both had to go.
It sounded crazy to the straight majority at the time who actually
believed that people went into politics to HELP THE PEOPLE. They really
believed that so, on that point alone, don't ever let anyone tell you the
Hippy Renaissance acheived nothing. For 20 years thereafter the Hippy
attitude was made to look silly. How could a few drug-crazed
irresponsible fools be right and EVERYBODY ELSE WRONG? Then Communism
collapsed and it was suddenly very clear that a few dissidents could be
right and an entire system could be user-unfriendly for ALL its users.
Now one System is gone and my attitude is: ONE DOWN ONE TO GO. (And now
the Republicans and the Democrats are COMPETING to dissolve the System!
Everybody has begun sensing at last that the very System itself is the
problem. And as the Economy continues to collapse (see below) the chain
reaction will come as it dawns on each individual that the threat the
System promises to defend its citizen from is actually the System itself.
Never have so many worked so hard and so long just to keep the Man off
their backs!)

Fraser. Jan 8th, 2000-5BC

house.54.217: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 9 Jan 95 03:43

CONCLUSION THREE More to the immediate point Larry keeps bringing up:
Another Conclusion the Hippies made (and I invite old hippies particularly
to participate in this discussion) was this: the ONLY hope for WoMankind,
the one thing that could change the maximum number of people in the
minimum amount of time available (apart from a miracle which means a
breaking of the rules from outside which would render all our higher acts
this far meaningless) was the discovery of some kind of breakthrough
device which could get every single person in the West (or whatever
critical mass turned out to be necessary), personally and one by one, OUT
OF THEIR HEADS and purely mental processes and INTO, as David's been
pointing out for some time, their BODIES and HEARTS.
Today, across the
UK, on every high street in the land, and increasingly in the whole of
Europe, at least one retail outlet is supplying non-stop insistent
shamanic African-style drumming most nights a week. An entire generation
is collectively GETTING OUT OF THEIR FUCKING HEADS and back into their
bodies and hearts. The device has been found. It's not expensive and it
works even better under the stars. Why do you think the British and French
governments, and increasingly the authorities over here - as we've been
warning you (PUBLICLY & NATIONALLY, Miga) since the beginning of summer
would happen - have been cracking down so heavily? Heart-opened,
in-body-dwelling folks see through bullshit and ACT from their conscience.

Another Conclusion we came to, based on all the info
available, was that both world systems were monotheistic, and that
inevitably meant that its whole raison d'etre was 'developing' . We had,
therefore, to find a way to get our consumption levels down by about 75%.
Everyone who became a Hippy DROPPED OUT - made the conscious decision, by
no means always an easy one, to opt for a new lifestyle that cut hir
consumption level by that amount. I personally, and quite a few others,
have lived that way ever since. I tell you this: if everyone, possessed
of the same info, had had the courage we had then, we would now be living
on a wonderful planet, clean and healthy, and probably even more ready to
travel to the stars or deeper into the communion of cyberspace. But
people didn't want to know, or didn't have the courage, or whatever. AND
under the weight of its own contradictions.
The reason the Hippy Movement
nearly succeeded was because the new planetary-friendly lifestyle became
FASHIONABLE, globally so, actually captured the media for a time. (Miga,
please note.) See the Rave connection? I'm working on a short story about
the dancefloor just now and will publish it here soon but notice that the
Rave dancelfoor is a laboratory for practising the new cooperative
lifestyle behaviour - sharing scant resources like SPACE and a simple
record mixer

CONCLUSION THREE More to the immediate point Larry keeps bringing up:
Another Conclusion the Hippies made (and I invite old hippies particularly
to participate in this discussion) was this: the ONLY hope for WoMankind,
the one thing that could change the maximum number of people in the
minimum amount of time available (apart from a miracle which means a
breaking of the rules from outside which would render all our higher acts
this far meaningless) was the discovery of some kind of breakthrough
device which could get every single person in the West (or whatever
critical mass turned out to be necessary), personally and one by one, OUT
OF THEIR HEADS and purely mental processes and INTO, as David's been
pointing out for some time, their BODIES and HEARTS.
Today, across the
UK, on every high street in the land, and increasingly in the whole of
Europe, at least one retail outlet is supplying non-stop insistent
shamanic African-style drumming most nights a week. An entire generation
is collectively GETTING OUT OF THEIR FUCKING HEADS and back into their
bodies and hearts. The device has been found. It's not expensive and it
works even better under the stars. Why do you think the British and French
governments, and increasingly the authorities over here - as we've been
warning you (PUBLICLY & NATIONALLY, Miga) since the beginning of summer
would happen - have been cracking down so heavily? Heart-opened,
in-body-dwelling folks see through bullshit and ACT from their conscience.

One last point for tonight (and I hope we've spared enough time on it by
now that we don't have to squabble about being Me-First when I say this)
RC here in America is simply years behind Europe in terms of the
proportion of the population into it. Rave is, quite simply, the dominant
youth meme in the UK now. Punk died about 5 years ago, and Rock'n Roll is
now perceived as basically the sound your grandparents listen to - it's in
museums and mums give dads it for Xmas while presidents play it at their
inaugurations - think about it! What revolution, never mind evolution, is
left in it? Here, apart from and even in SF and Colorado etc, it's hardly
yet the dominant youth meme - would anyone dispute this? And a large part
of the difference is because America systematically pillages the rest of
the planet to KEEP YOU CONTENT AND QUIET, and so the Economic Collapse is
slower here - actually it's even deeper but keeps the rest of the world
hostage to shore itself up. I found it baffling when we first got here.
Surrounded by Collapse / Dissolution on every side, on every page of every
newspaper, and in their own and everybody's life they know about
personally, most Americans still hope that the economy will get rolling
again soon - or even eventually. Well, I'm here to tell you that THERE
FOREVER.! Most zippy ravers in Europe see that as GOOD NEWS, realise that
the very worst thing the planet needs is a return to yuppy acceleration
and annually increasing GNPs. The planet cannot and will not take it.

Oh, yes, who was it who brought up the old chestnut that the planet will
survive very well without us and therefore there's nothing actually to
worry about? WoMankind is the blossoming of Gaia's most developed branch,
humanity, her brain is the sum total of all the crania on the planet.
It's taken Her millions of years to evolve to this point where She is
almost ready to explore the rest of the galaxy. Of course she'll survive
if all her flowers self-destruct. But it's been a trillion year foreplay
before Her final burst into space, and I don't think She'll be very happy
being bombed back to the Stone Age or further. Do you think that's what
She's telling YOU??

Fraser. Jan 8th, 2000-5AD.

house.54.218: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Mon 9 Jan 95 06:26

I confess I can't actually read Fraser's posts, but I must say
I really enjoy watching a true professional go at it *8-)

house.54.219: smiles in the morning (tow) Mon 9 Jan 95 07:42


house.54.220: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Mon 9 Jan 95 09:47


house.54.221: smiles in the morning (tow) Mon 9 Jan 95 10:35


house.54.222: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Mon 9 Jan 95 13:13


house.54.223: drugs, internet, BOO! (reid) Mon 9 Jan 95 15:13

I've heard incredible stories about the drumming scene in cambridge. Can
anyone confirm this?

house.54.224: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Mon 9 Jan 95 20:19

This posting by a visiting Englander. Responding to Larry "raves are
boring", yeah, I think a lot of them are. Especially when every one's
stoned on something, and the music's so loud you can't speak even if you
wanted to. Part of it is an attitude of mind of course - if you want to
talk just do it - but it does help to promote communication, which
presumably is what zippies aim to do. That's why we need 1) Ambient,
acoustic and especially silent spaces where people can hang out and talk,
and 2) activities that promote comunication. The playshops and parallel
university at Megatripolis aim to do this, as does this interface we're
doing now. Personally I'm especially interested in mass rituals. The
ritual of dancing to loud music arguably produces some kind of
comunication, but this ain't the kind I'm on about. On the openning night
of (the presently hibernating) Megatripolis West there was a ritual, but
it was structured in such a way that it was more of a spectacle or
performance. Participartary rituals for a participartary
democracy/society! Obviously this needs planing. Conscious breathing
immediately springs to mind as something that is easily led, do-able in
large numbers and doesn't demand too much in terms of participation (for
those not used to it). Such breathing has powerful fx:- simply breathing
in a re-birthing manner can lead to tingling, increased energy and
vibrancy, even orgasmic full body convulsions (especialy with
vocalisation). It's definitly noticable. Singing and large talking cirles
are do-able and may present more logistical problems. Trance dancing in
traditional shamanic patterns could be done. There could be an area for
"normal" rave dancing and an area for experimentation perhaps. There
could be nights exclusively devoted to such weirdness/extra sanity. Some
kindly soul(s) could make it as simple as possible for people to organise
their own ayahuasca/vision quests (ayahuasca being a visionary vine of
startling powers. If you don't know of it or want to know more, check out
the following excellent 1994 books - "The Essential Psychedelic Guide" by
D.M.Turner, $15 post included from: Panther Press, 1032 Irving #514, San
Francisco, CA 94122 and/or "Psychedelic Shamanism: The Cultivation,
Preparation and Shamanic Use of Psychotropic Plants" by Jim DeKorne from
Loompanics Unlimited, POBox 1197, Port Townsend, WA 98368 Tel# (206)
385-2230. Having posted that, I'll ad that I think of regular, especially
daily, drug use as counter productive in the extreem). The increased
practice of rituals out of raves can lead to their easier introduction
into the scene and the vastly increased health/integration of rave
participants. Make this happen in YOUR community. Just because some raves
are boring doesn't mean they all have to be! Post your ideas for increased
fun/communication/ritual communality here. Kian/editor of HEAD mag

house.54.225: marginally-clued viewer (kevins) Mon 9 Jan 95 22:28
{scribbled by kevins Mon 9 Jan 95 22:31}

house.54.226: marginally-clued viewer (kevins) Mon 9 Jan 95 22:34

My vote for most important item missing from the zippie tool kit is

the paragraph.

house.54.227: paragraph breaks are godhead (mc2) Tue 10 Jan 95 00:21


house.54.228: exterminate rational thought (mc2) Tue 10 Jan 95 00:40

house.54.229: manifest dentistry (mc2) Tue 10 Jan 95 00:42


house.54.230: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Wed 11 Jan 95 15:37

FRASER in response to 228 by mc2

WoManity IS the world, mc2, in the sense that the branches and blossoms
are the tree. We're not just some accident that suddenly appeared at the
end. Everything led up to this and we certainly need to change or we all
go down together. Yes, the planet MIGHT just return to its roots but what
do you imagine was their intention when they grew the tree - and will grow
another tree if they survive. Why do you think they do it for chrissake?!
Just some accident? Which would make YOU an accident. I know the
majority of people today have probably been convinced of that, but it
doesn't make it true.

Glad I strained your "wildest credulity". I hope it's just a beginning
for you because, believe me, it can get much much wider than this. The
world, mc2, is not only stranger than you or even I imagine - it's wider
and stranger and more amazing than we CAN imagine.

Er, you're talking to an honours psychologist and a sacred sociologist.
When I say "habit even" I include your long list.

You're right, I'm not particularly concerned about your "diversity of
viewpoints". We got that already, no? Or do you see anyone trying to
legislate against your viewpoint? Do you see that threatened? I don't.
I see as many fucking viewpoints as people. I see a babble, a Tower Of
Babble-on. Democracy, you know, is about everyone having an equal right to
their own viewpoint. But that DOES NOT MEAN (now pay attention, drop your
precious viewpoint for an instant and try to apprehend Reality
[capitalised] just as It is) that every viewpoint is equally likely to be
right. That is very far from the case.

And here's a corollary to that if you're prepared to think it through
without a viewpoint. If everyone is to be free to have their own unique
viewpoint (which is democracy) then that behoves us even more to TELL
people if we think they're off on a wrong direction. Get it? The more
freedom people are allowed, the GREATER your duty to tell them if you
think they're wrong. Get it? It's a moral 'duty' that comes along with
the 'right.' And it' selfish too because their continuing fuck-up sinks
ALL of us.

And here's one more idea. (An idea, by the way, is not just another town
on the route. It's designed to be a concept shifter and should be allowed
to swirl around your brain for at least 24 hours before you start looking
for a response. If you find yourself "jumping to conclusions" you're
probably not really listening - your precious viewpoint is probably just
reacting.) Here's the IDEA: if we agree that the world is pretty
seriously fucked up, meaning , as you so correctly point out, that the
human species is seriously misguided and probably even clinically nuts,
then you gotta face the corollary: most people's viewpoints must
therefore be WRONG about the basics. Now of course that doesn't mean they
don't know which bus goes downtown or a trillion other informational bits.
But their underlying world viewpoint must be WRONG. Not in touch with how
things actually are or should or could be.

But note, mc2, that doesn't preclude SOME INDIVIDUALS within that species
having saner and more accurate viewpoints. And those are the ones we
should start listening to and learning from. Now I'm starting to spew
forth MY viewpoints - nobody has to listen to them, and you certainly
don't have to obey them. If you get nothing of use, move on - obviously.
But don't make the mistake that because your ego or your viewpoint gets
angry means you're getting nothing. It could equally be that your
viewpoint is so out of touch that my opinions are upsetting your EGO.
Obviously you'll decide for yourself and that's it.

Fraser 1/11/2000-5 AD

house.54.231: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 11 Jan 95 17:27

I think what this debate is touching on is the problem of "cultural
relativism" in the so-called American counterculture. It is easy to
situate oneself at the alter of no-view-point-at-all, where all other
viewpoints have equal validity and the path of non-action is the only one
open. I would like to see some COMMITMENT here from those who so readily
debate the pro and con of an idea but see no link with debate and action.

Yes there are many routes out of the shit we are in, but which road will
we travel? How are we goind to script this evolution or have we already
got money resting on our civilisation going down the plug-hole.

I see no attempt by anyone to grasp the NUMEROUS points I have made and
backed up regarding the MAJORITY OF THE WORLD'S PEOPLE. 250 million does
not a planet make. If we are not going to factor in the Billion other
individuals then I would rather not participate in what is becomming a
chauvinist attempt to justify the existance of post-modern Amerika along
with its MTV version of the counterculture. As for SF's pretty punk scene
with the likes of Lydia Lunch - looks to me more like the late hedonism
of the Roman Empire - "Nero, what shall we eat tonight? Peacock shit and
Pessimism with a little righteous anger and blood."

THIS GLASS HOUSE. Doesn't take a genius to get them to smile, or dance.

house.54.232: RUSirius (rusirius) Wed 11 Jan 95 19:01

Lydia Lunch is in New Orleans...

house.54.233: Will Kreth (kreth) Wed 11 Jan 95 19:06

mc2 - you rock

fraser - you bore me


house.54.234: Robert Lauriston (duck) Wed 11 Jan 95 20:06

And before she lived in NO she was very much part of the NY scene and
not at all a San Francisco kind of girl.

God is in the details, so you guys are obviously atheists. Please get
out of our foxhole.

house.54.235: it will make me crazy! (miga) Wed 11 Jan 95 21:18

heh! great rants. I agree with many of mc2's points but I have a deeper
issue with the Zippy outlook that rave is the only thing that can get the
dominant culture out of the mess it is in. this is simply not true and to
believe in rave as a sort of monoculture is completely old school imho, it
misses the point entirely. If it goes the way I hope there will be more of
a multiplicity of cultures and subcultures than ever! the net is certainly
optimized for it.

people do need to get into their bodies and hearts, true, and rave, when it
works, is a great way to get there, but everyone is not the same. different
things will work for different people. and raves don't always do it. I think
the only way to transmit the part of rave that makes it a culture is through
personal contact and communication. this is why I think the net is a more
effective way to transmit the culture than the media, the media mostly only
transmit form, they are not reliable with content. they dilute it and put
their own spin on everything.

what will change the world is steady and consistant effort over time, in
cooperation with other people who share your outlook. it can only happen so
fast. it is good to encourage positive things but culture cannot be forced,
only influenced.

house.54.236: Find your Inner Barney (rik) Wed 11 Jan 95 21:20

Well said, M

house.54.237: marginally-clued viewer (kevins) Wed 11 Jan 95 22:14

Saw something relevant in (kreth)'s plan; "Free your mind and your ass will
follow." George Clinton

The element of rave that is essential for all people is the free mind. The
proponents of Rave Culture and its tranformative powers argue something
close the the reverse of the quote; free your ass (through vigorous,
extended shaking, to music at roughly 120bpm, for extended periods, all
night if possible) and your mind will follow. For some, this undoubtably
works, for others, it won't/doesn't.

Amidst the hyperbole and the rants, I have found intriguing insights
presented by the rave proponents. I get frustrated because they're simply so
damn hard to find. I won't complain too much, after all, this is the
Zippies [continued] topic, a logical place for Fraser to find a home on the

Hey (duck), what's a matter? Did ya forget how to forget? It's only one
topic. :-)

house.54.238: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Thu 12 Jan 95 03:20

What miga said . . . !

Even within what Fraser calls RC there are significant and sometimes opposed
subcurrents. Let me tell a little story to illustrate.

At the first Megatripolis West in early October at the Troc, my friend
Robert Smith was in the house. Robert lives in the LA area now but
just recently moved from Detroit, where he has lots of local contacts
(and in fact was the roommate of jcourte who has served as a co-host
of this very conference). So Robert went up to a couple of the
Megatripolis organizers and suggested that he might help bring in some
of the Detroit folks, many of whom are renowned as both DJs and
music producers (Kevin Saunderson, Juan Atkins, etc., and quite a few
lesser known). No, he was told, the only type of music the Megatripolitans
were interested in was "trance."

Now this is to laugh. If anyone can be said to have *invented* techno
which then evolved into what these latter-day whizzes call trance (a term
that is remarkably wide-ranging, but in this context means roughly
130-150 bpm sparse techno), it would be these very same Detroit DJs!

In my view there is room for all these styles. It might even do the
west coast good to hear a good raw 180 bpm ardkore/gabber set once in
a while to see why a good many people in Europe like that stuff.
Actual experience is always much better than reported experience.

But anyway, my point is, one of the biggest problems I find with the
so-called Zippy view is the enormous gap between ideology and practice.

house.54.239: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Thu 12 Jan 95 04:20

FRASER in response to 228 by mc2

mc2: Will all systems collapse "under the weight of their own
contradictions" ?
fraser: Yes. Name one that didn't.

mc2: Is the lowering of consumption because of courage in the face of
a 'developing' .. monotheistic world system somehow *better* than the
forced lowering of consumption?

fraser: Is not murdering someone (in this case a planet) *better* than
murdering that someone? Planets have rights too, bro! (and I never doubt
for a single second that you'll grant Her that right the day you grok that
you ARE that planet!)

mc2: And now that cutting consumption is forced upon us will we soon
or "now be living on a wonderful planet, clean and healthy, and probably
even more ready to travel to the stars or deeper into the communion of

fraser: it'll take a little time, emmsy. (it's like decriminalising
drugs - a lot harder than banning them in the first place in order to find
out that it can never work. And there's one other HUGE problem. As the
System dissolves into the creeping turbulence around us, "we" the
community can go two ways. We can start competing for decreasing
resources. Or a new cooperative meme can become fucking dominant! Got it
yet? And this is precisely where RC comes in.

mc2: Exactly how does "sharing scant resources like SPACE and a
simple record mixer on the dancefloor" encourage the collective behaviors
of composting, recycling and conserving energy, Frase? Of respecting
complex conflicting value systems?

fraser: Your second point is self-evident if you'll look at it again,
MC. What is a rave about but the coming together of diverse sub-cultures
(goths, gays, heavy metal heads and all those "complex conflicting value
systems" who WISH TO REMAIN like that.) I call RC a culture because it is
POTENTIALLY the seed of a NEW COOPERATIVE culture (competing within a
culture of cooperation as we said before) that can grow to replace the Old

As for conserving energy - well, what's a rave but a coupla guys playing
records for a large number of people? A rave is EXACTLY about conserving
energy. No stage, no stars, no mega sound system, no bands dragging their
egos around with them, no floor show, no space to fucking move, no
clubvenue even - I could go on and on and on. Composting and recycling?
Well, at the risk of opening up a new front by stiriring up a hornet's
nest of half-baked assumptions, I would say that we really do not have the
time (Miga) to spend a lot of scarce energy tinkering with the System in
this way. First it has to go and go it is going.

Well, that's enough attention to mc2's stuff for tonite. Now for one last
bit to Miga.

miga: I have a deeper issue with the Zippy outlook that rave is the
only thing that can get the dominant culture out of the mess it is in.
this is simply not true and to believe in rave as a sort of monoculture is
completely old school imho. If it goes the way I hope there will be more
of a multiplicity of cultures and subcultures than ever! the net is
certainly optimized for it.

fraser: There's a real misperception here of what we are saying which
I didn't really want to get into yet. It's the question that should
follow the present one which is to strive to define what Rave and RC can
be, the full shamanic personal/socio/politico/mythico/spiritual process -
THEN we discuss how it can positively affect the society around it
especially as the latter dissolves and looks for new ways forward.

But I guess you can't really separate them in that way. OK.

The main philosophical misperception of the Zippy position is that "rave
is the only thing that can get the dominant culture out of the mess it is
in .. rave as a sort of monoculture" We are ABSOUTELY not saying that.

far the most likely social movement to be able to pool together ALL THE
OTHER GREAT BITS which, on their own, can achieve only very slowly. I'd
go further and say that as long as the System Operators can deal with us
DIVIDED then they can EASILY & EFORTLESSLY steal back a little bit on the
other side whenever any one little subcult gains a small but seemingly
significant victory on *this* side. All these diverse subcults and
single-issue groupings and monocultures which everyone keeps praising MUST
SOMEHOW COME TOGETHER for Real Change to crystallise on time. And of
course this includes the net, why the hell am I doing all this posting?!

I'm saying that the net and Re-evaluation Counselling and political and
social activists and everybody else with something positive are PART of
RC! (whether they realise it yet or not). RC can be the Great Synthesis

have to argue that some other (presently) sub cult has a better growth
potential to provide such a glue.

SYNTHESISER then WE SAY: join the Zippy Conspiracy. WhethEr you really
believe in your heart of hearts that it's possible to save this stinking

The Great Debate has now been officially enjoined.

See you on the barricades

Fraser. 1/12/200-5AD

house.54.240: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Thu 12 Jan 95 04:28

Very good point, phred. I'll answer it soon and inparticular.
But just an immediate reponse for the moment.
The main difference between raves in the Uk and here in SF is this: You
guys mostly give parties. A party is where everyone brings their
favourite record and we play them one after the other.
Nothing "wrong" with that but a "proper" rave is a much more ambitious
affair. It is more like a conspiracy of people to use tecno-shamanic
techniques - repetitive insistenst music & lights to try to move the
whole group to the next evolutionary level.


house.54.241: Jim Cyr (surfpunk) Thu 12 Jan 95 10:03

essentially, then, what is being debated in this "raves" vs. "parties"
debate and the call for ritual calls for a deliniation of terms


parties are rituals - there is a predictable beginning, middle and end
and all of the participants remain singular and each separate in their
"pods" of experience

true raves are ceremonies - a ceremony has all the elements of a ritual, but
the "intention" of those gathered is to access a true spiritual experience
in which the individual merges with the collective in a shared experience
which not only allows the individual to transcend themselves, but, also
allows for an experience of true communion with others - hence the "smiles
in the morning". Traditionaly in tribal culture this could be achieved in
the sweatlodge, the Sundance, the vision quest, the pow-wow etc, etc.

there is an ancient yearning for rites of initiation and transcendence which
i believe is innate to awakened human experience.

what we seem to be discussing, is a yearning for a definition of community
that the best of us have only glimpsed the possibilities of
we have yet to achieve it, but in our guts, the feeling is we know it when
we experience it - it does happen

miga will recall that two years ago over a period of months, many of us
met regularly, in a circle, trying to do a good thing
there were always forces in the circle seeking to dominate its direction
and focus - but to our credit we maintained a balance and the way those
evenings went were engendering an experience of community at least for a
while here in the Bay Area

we need to gather our circles together again and as a collective dream the
ceremonies and dance them

house.54.242: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Thu 12 Jan 95 17:12

right on, cyr! And then take our new vibration out into the world and
spread a new meme. would you agree that everyone in the Bay Area by now
realizes (albeit in an uncoscious sense at the back of their minds) that a
lot of young people are "out there somewhere" refusing to take all this
negativity and competition lying down, that they're insisting on doing
their own thing OUTSIDE THE CONSENSUS REALITY? If you accept that, on
some level at least, then that's the clue to how RC can begin to change
Society at large. Wait till it gets MUCH BIGGER so that nobody can deny
or be unaware of it.(like in the Uk now where parliament passes laws about
it and committees meet to define what rave music is) What effect does that
have on the average person - never mind the increasing numbers actually
starting to get involved in it? (who are actually going through radical
changes in themselves to spread the vibe even further)

Half a dozen years ago in London things were getting so tight I used to
worry taking my dog Darling on the bus because there would sure as hell be
some busybodying puritan authoritative personality ready to insist I put
her on a lead (which I almost NEVER did). 3 years into the Rave scene
that stopped happening. Why? Because there was so much "creative
craziness" and "freedom" OUT THERE in normal reality that the
authoritative types were deluged with it AND THE LAST THING THEY WANTED


house.54.243: David Dei (megatrip) Thu 12 Jan 95 19:06

Slippery people these. One wrong fact does not a rebuttal make. Quite
frankly I don't care if Lydia Lunch is or is not a part of the SF punk
scene. Does it matter that christ never went to Rome, or are we arguing
that christianity is just a "Bethlehem Thang". Pessimism is not on my
menu, and we still do not see any attempt to Dialogue on this Amerika
thing either. Am I to believe that this silence is tacit agreement with
what my argument viz Rave is an expanding global phenomena that is most
definately not a subculture or a global mono-culture but rather a new
paradigm. Mbaqanqa and Bhangra are not small unless we take the view that
America is the LARGEST country on this planet. That 250 american souls
are worth more than the 200 million native north and south american
indians who died in your colonial genocide. And those billion chinese are
just worthless if they don't drink Coca Cola?

In short: why can rave save the world?

Sorry folks, but the Twentieth Century version of the ROMAN EMPIRE lost.

house.54.244: Will Kreth (kreth) Thu 12 Jan 95 19:57


And that's why it's time, to {forget} this topic.



house.54.245: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Fri 13 Jan 95 01:55

Um, excuse me pardon me, but "us guys" throw parties that we definitely
*try* to make into raves by playing music and displaying lights that
help folks reach a higher level of personal awareness and social connection,
AND it would please me a whole lot if you would stop talking down to
us, Fraser.

We damn well DO know what we're doing.

house.54.246: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Fri 13 Jan 95 02:25

phred, I didn't say you don't use lights and records here - obviously I know
you do. The point I was making was in response to your story of the
Chicago guy who wanted to bring some of their DJs down to Megatripolis.
I think it was actually me to whom you were referring.
The point I was making, then, was that a rave is a shamanic attempt to
bootstrap the whole group UP by INSISTENT REPETITIVE STEADY BEATS which,
over a whole night, have a very definite EFFECT on everyone within the
building - not only on the dancefloor. If that beat goes up and down
and round and rond with every change of DJ or even within the one DJ set
then you're no longer using that technique - it's just become a party.
(Nothing wrong with that, I repeat, except we were trying for something
more, that's all.)
OK, agree with me or not but at least understand me.
Have you ever, apart from at Megat ever had cosistent shamanic sustained
beat for 6 hours on the trot? I've never found it here yet - although
SPAZ tell me they're kicking off a regular nonstop trance night on Friday
20th. See you there?

house.54.247: marginally-clued viewer (kevins) Fri 13 Jan 95 08:04

"Finding one factual error does not an rebuttal make."

Perhaps not. But, repeated factual errors does not crediblity build. Like
mixing up Detroit and Chicago.

The difficulty I am having here is that there seem to be different
connotations to the use of the terms rave and rave culture, without really
being consistent. On one hand, a rave is the experience Fraser just defined,
a participatory group ritual that involves inducing shamanic experience
through consistent insistent music over a period of several hours. This
, in our modern world of subcultures (which (megatrip) denies the Zippies
are), the implied meaning of rave culture would be a consistent group of
lifstyle activities that people involved with raves are also involved in.

On the other hand, the hand that bothers me, is the implication that rave
culture is, essentially, the meme that can save the world, if the world can
be saved, where nothing else can, unless it joins in with rave culture.

(megatrip), there is nothing wrong with being a subculture. And, by the
purported goals of Zippies, Zippies, and by extension rave culture, is a
subculture. If it has not yet reached "critical mass" to make the widespread
cultural changes you have identified as necessary, it is not yet part of the
overall meme-structure (so to speak) of the world (as abstracted collection
of all humanity).

I've got to go to work. I would like to hear Fraser's response on this.
(This is an attempt to understand, so I can figure out whether I agree or

house.54.248: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Fri 13 Jan 95 09:10


house.54.249: Robert Lauriston (duck) Fri 13 Jan 95 10:05

Who cares about demographics? Cultural influence is not about how many
heads your census department tallies. If that were the case, you all
would be discussing subsistence agrigulture, not the latest disco fads.

house.54.250: smiles in the morning (tow) Fri 13 Jan 95 11:34


house.54.251: Robert Lauriston (duck) Fri 13 Jan 95 12:01

"tangable and communative"?

house.54.252: David Dei (megatrip) Fri 13 Jan 95 14:18

Thanks kevins and tow, at last some sensible dialogue.

I would like to address what I see as a common misconception regarding
cultural analysis. Conceptial terms such as "Rave" or "Rave Culture" are
merely useful tools for describing the phenomenon of reality. It does not
matter whether the people we are describing think of themselves as "ravers"
nor whether they agree with our theories or concepts. To give an example.
You might find a kid you considers himself a "gabber" which would mean
that he would listen to german speed techno up in the 200-400 Bpm range.
Is this person a raver? In my book yes, in his - he's just a gabber. So
we might have a problem if we asked the question "are you a raver?".

It all depends on how you define "rave music". Is it just a style
or a new musical form? My argument centers on the fact of a major
commonality betw the following music styles which I characterise as

1. the use of a drumbox
2. the de-emphasis of lyrics or minimal lyrical content
3. the virtual absence of radio-slot 2.5 to 3 minute cuts ie Anti-Star-Status
4. the consistant and flagrant use of appropriation and sampling
5. the production of this music in largely live out-of-studio situations
6. the liberty to experiment with BPM
7. the link with earlier pre-rock musical forms

I feel that the above provides sufficiant argument for the existance of a
distinct Rave Phenomenon that has build on earlier interim musical forms
such as the Rock/Rave hybrid known as HIP HOP (use of
drumbox,appropriation, live mixing but high lyrical content and high
star quality) or even earlier POP and New WAVE forms.(use of drumbox,
appropriation of indigenous sounds but over-emphasis on lyrics, no
liberty with BPM etc)

My reading of the entire music industry is that the packaging and
tranformation of african slave culture (blues/soul/jazz) into rock'n pop
is not only a recent phenomenon but a temporary re-alignment of shamanic
technology that is presently getting back on course with its shamanic agenda.
Rave is the Shamanic Revenge, that will see the eventual death of large
music corporations with the demise of packaged sound and the rise of
increasingly real-time renditions (via raves and internet) of the only
two catagories worth talking about: Balladic/Oral Music on the one hand and Shamanic/Dance/
Drumming music on the other.

Both forms will a returned to their community focus along with the return
of humanities planatary focuse, because as always, these new evolutions
in technology and culture will demand political expression!

house.54.253: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Fri 13 Jan 95 15:38

My impression of all this is that "rave" is whatever Mr. Fraser Clark
defines it to be.

But I'm afraid that's not going to work for those of us who have actually
been involved in the evolution of this musical and social phenomenon, at
least those of us who like me haven't the faintest clue what the long-
term significance is of it and who are following along partly to see how
the story is going to turn out, but mostly because what we're involved in
touches us deeply to the core and is informed by the broader web of
musical and social relationships we're immersed in, and not any single
pronouncement or musical style.

As for whether we have the idea of "rave" down pat, Fraser, why don't
you come to some of the upcoming events some of our net.raver crew are
involved with over the next month. For example, there's the Nag Champa
ambient music event on Saturday the 21st. I think there will be another
Atomic party outside at the Oakland Coliseum parking lot during the
next set of Grateful Dead shows at the end of February. And with excitement
and modesty (given my inexperience at playing in public), I will mention my
own set scheduled for Friday, January 27 at the weekly Sound System club at
1015 Folsom, which may not be a "rave" but is the closest we'll get in a
regular SOMA club space.

And then, judge for yourself.

house.54.254: smiles in the morning (tow) Fri 13 Jan 95 19:05


house.54.255: fraser clark (megatrip) Sat 14 Jan 95 07:30

lovely, lovely posting, David. I've always felt myself that Rock'n Roll
was meant to shake the system to the core. It's about rebellion, designed
at its most powerful to bring down the walls of jericho. Rave seems to me
like the music to put it all back together again. Punk was the rejection
of all the coruption of R?R but too urban-limited to see any way out or
back. But I take it back quite abit further that R&R. I see ballet and
opera (I got physically sick at the 3 ballets I have ever attended in my
long life at the sounds of divinely intricate delicate feet being
crashed against the wooden floor of the stAge etc) and the
super-controlled and in a deep sense unnatural constriction and control of
the throat or body belong to an age when WoMankind had reached a maximum
loss of contact with the nat5ural vegetative brain of their planet -
something like that. What would you say?

house.54.256: fraser clark (megatrip) Sat 14 Jan 95 07:36

David, Nice posting. Peter

house.54.257: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Sat 14 Jan 95 11:58

First I'll rant - then I'll talk about Rave.

What bullshit, Fraser...any human achievement is worthy. A ballet dancer
defies Nature with her precise movements and masculine posture. The more
we DEFY nature, the more fun we have. Fuck nature! Fuck what the Planet
has to say! Fuck biology! The "natural vegetative brain of the planet"
is just as likely to flush us into the sea with floods or open itself up
and swallow us, and lay low the dwellings we've built for ourselves. And
then our bodies will *rot* and be eaten by small, slimy creatures. THAT
IS THE NATURE OF "NATURE". The only reason you're able to play your
fucking music to so many people is because we've fucked with Nature, and
the only reason you're able to tell us about it is because we've fucked
with Nature!

Anyway, that's just an aside.

FC mentioned a while back about how most people in the world must have
fundamentally wrong assumptions. I think he's right. Here is a short

*** start of list ***

Jesus Christ will not save you from the void.
There is no god; if he was, he'd make you stand in line and stop picking
your nose.
There is no goddess; if she was, she'd swallow you whole and drown you on a
If we all get together and dance, that won't help bring rain to water our
Magic doesn't work! (Please, don't get metaphorical on me here.)

I've read it's expected that a billion people will watch an episode of
"Baywatch" in the coming year.
Noting the misconceptions of the Billion is left as an exercise to the

*** end of list ***

The Hippie revolution was indeed the most radical shift in "modern"
culture. And those cats were predated by the Teddy Boys, who were really
the first Teenagers, so thanks, Brits. And thanks, of course, to Elvis,
who gave the first really hard shove. So much of the dominant beliefs
about that time are lies, FC is right. Since the '60s, the world has many subcultures. Maybe RC will become a big-ass youth
culture and change the world in a big way. Youth cultures are scary; they
do as they will, and sometimes you get Baywatch Around the World. Blame
Elvis. But sometimes you get better results. We don't know much about
them, we've only had youth cultures for 40 years or so.

But I think it's possible, sure. RC seems like a dark horse, but so was
Truman. We are mutating all the time. I don't see why the discussion
should go on here; the Zippies would like to recruit, however, so they
will keep it going. I'll go to more raves and talk to people there. When
I get around to it.

Three final points:

I got props for pointing out the limitations of the rave Form (thanks for
the clarification, Miga) but no one really addressed them, because they
can''s a matter of preference and will always limit rave's appeal.
But they probably said the same thing about Elvis.

David Dei will probably not be found at the next Stones concert.

Paragraphs...nice, huh? Try 'em sometime!


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