Romantic Bombast?

I'm appalled that anyone would buy into the notion that a state
of justice can be seeded by some sort of primitive, collectively
ego-less dance ritual. At best, that kind of thing yields a
generation of crotchety, middle-aged men and women insisting that
all their youthful, muddy flailing helped changed the world-- while
it is painfully obvious to the rest of us that it has not changed a
whit. At worst, it primes the culture for a personality who is all
to glad to command a mass of mindless, conscience-less drones. The
hills of Weimar were filled with young people playing guitars and
pirouetting in circles. Either they didn't do a damn thing to stop
the madness building in the cities, or they joined it themselves,
becoming part of a movement where doing basically the same thing was
far more cost effective. Nuremberg was the coolest rave site, ever.

house.54.69: The Mojo Sloth (kevins) Sat 24 Dec 94 13:04

Dave Dei, relative to rave culture or music-based social interaction, what
role did international political and economic pressure, labor market and
internal economic changes, or inherent immorality of the system play in the
fall of apartheid, from your perspective?

house.54.70: Alan Turner (arturner) Sat 24 Dec 94 13:34

For many people, a collective ritual is a way of reinforcing a community.
That community can have good purposes or bad purposes, but that's a
different issue entirely (everybody's mileage varies on what's good, after
all). Either way, it's an effective way of reinforcing a shared idea.

house.54.71: let your mind be your sun (tow) Sat 24 Dec 94 17:37


house.54.72: David Dei (megatrip) Sat 24 Dec 94 18:42

Re 69} Did the carpet bombing and collective international sanctions
against Iraq change its government? The problem with a siege economy and
its siege mentality is this - the actions of the international community
tend to reinforce the belief that the paraiah nation's ideology is right.
Not hard to believe when the main element is an us vs them persecution
complex. Thus the harder we isolated a nation, the closer we drive it
into a self fulfilling fascist loop. I cannot believe that not allowing
the film "The Color Purple" to be shown in South Africa helped in any way
to influence events there. Rather it was the combined energies of the
entire south african nation that achieved the radical transformation. I
don't think any one party can take credit especially since the ANC had
been trying to achieve a revolution since the turn of the century and
ranks alongside the Irish Republicans as one of the worlds oldest
revolutionary parties.

In answer to the accusations that Rave Culture is merely following the
Nuremburg egolessness. "luke skywalker, the force can be used for good or
evil but don't ignore it" Raving without a postive social agenda is
indeed no better than than a bible belt sunday ceremony. But then, again
for some curious reason, the peace love and intelligence memes seem to
revel in this seasons dance. Do'nt let one bad experience jade you. Trust
is what its all about.

house.54.73: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sat 24 Dec 94 19:37

For those who haven't been exposed to the profundities of wjamesau
elsewhere on the Well, let me just say that it's oh so easy to be a
complete cynic. Now, moving on . . .

I would say that on the whole "rave" music has been mostly resistant to
the influence of other music styles, other than its roots in disco,
electropop and the 1970s electronic sound of Kraftwerk and so on.
That is a mixed blessing; on the one hand, producers of electronic music
have virtually a blank canvass to paint on, sonically, and that has
produced some very interesting results. But it's also produced a ton
of paint-by-numbers sameness, which I encounter every time I go out
record shopping. Someone gets an intriguing new snippet of sound that
works on the dance floors for a while, and everyone jumps on it.
Sometimes these are more or less borrowed from other traditions; a
classic example was the success of The Goodmen's huge hit, "Give It Up,"
which was based on a Brazilian drum riff and spawned literally dozens
of imitator tracks. In some ways this is similar to the reggae/dancehall
practice, where a particularly memorable "riddim" will be reused again and
again, often with deadeningly similar results.

A lot of the tracks I hear lack any real musical depth, but there are also
those that stretch the musical boundaries, sometimes in directions nobody
has gone before, and sometimes to very interesting syntheses. And taste
divides, too, as always. I was never a big fan of Deep Forest, which
pasted Pygmy singing on top of sort of dunderheaded slow dance beats,
but that *can* be done with grace and style, as indicated by the Boomtang
track Nyiki Nyiki which I opened my set last Saturday night at Friends
and Family. Electronic or computerized musical production doesn't make
music any *easier* at the level of composition and feeling, it just provides
a broader, more flexible and much more complex set of choices.

P.S. Cyberia is full of accurate facts and completely off the wall
conclusions. It's as superficial a take on the SF house music
scene circa 1992 as I've seen anywhere.

house.54.74: The Mojo Sloth (kevins) Sat 24 Dec 94 19:46

Re: carpet bombing and collective international sanctions against Iraq
change its government?

Yes. Iraq pulled out of Kuwait, the explicit goal of the multinational
effort. Did it depose Saddam? No. Did it reduce the potential threat Saddam
and his regime posed to the region? Yes. Has it laid a groundwork for
continued international observation to avoid future build up? Yes, although
a qualified success.

Did it make life better for Iraqis, regardless of political affiliation?
No. Did it elevate the level of social justice found in the region? No.

While I understand the use of the Gulf War to examine the effects of a siege
economy and a siege mentality (your terms), I don't see the connection to
the South African experience or the international actions directed toward
that nation and it's government. Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is
the connection between a nation's government choosing to send 500,000 troops
and the most advanced weaponry in the world to force a dictator to withdraw
from an invasion of a neighboring nation and some movie producer not
distributing a film in a particular country?
Or am I off the mark, was _The Color Purple_ not distributed in South Africa
as the result of some offical US government decision/policy?

What about the other factors: internal economics, and essential morality?

I am not trying to be adversarial or provacative. I got the impression you
had first hand experience of South Africa. My experience is limited to
academic study, press coverage, and a friendship with an South African
exchange student. I agree with the point of view taken by (phred) in #63 re
music and dance as a powerful form for creating and maintaining social
cohesion. IMHO, it is the fundamental failure of the aparthied system from a
moral and economic point of view that lead to its downfall. The changing
nature of its economy started to show powerful cracks over 30 years ago, but
political change takes time.

Can you give us some supporting arguments that go deeper than the
serendipitous emergence of the "Vibe Tribe" and rave culture in South Africa
and the relatively* peaceful dismantling of the apartheid system?

* I say relatively not to diminish or minimize the bloodshed and loss of
life that has occured, but it is difficult to recall such a major shift in
political and governmental power without all-out war.

house.54.75: David Dei (megatrip) Sat 24 Dec 94 21:36

Well, this topic is certainly fizzing along nicely, but I'm not sure any
of us
are getting any the wiser. Some people seem to be "overheaducated" as an
Danish guru of mine in India used to say (meaning their heads are so full
"information" that they start to assume that nothing "new" can happen - a
like the problem with the System itself. )
Others like DUCK are either totally lost souls and/or deliberate
spoilers. The
first type get my empathy, the second lot my sympathy, but that's not
what this
topic is about.
Let's try going back to absolute basics.
Is the System we live/die of boredom under a user- unfriendly one, both
for the
ruled and the rulers.? YES.
In that sense would we be ultimately (ie after a transition period of
turbulence) be better off without it? YES. (Everybody in overground
is finally moving to this position which is amazingly positive,
actually. I
mean, when I started saying the entire Western economic/political System
had to
go if we as a species and Earth as a planet were to have any chance I was
dismissed completely or regarded as dotty. Now Republicans and Democrats
competing to dismantle (or better dissolve) the System. And the Russian
is long gone!
This seemingly leaves 2 questions: How do we get rid of it? AND What are
we to
put in its place ?
The answers to both these questions overlap greatly.
First, "we" are not some elite who have or should have a great say in
matters. The last thing we need is a new System to replace what was
before, nor
a party with such a theoretical System in mind who go about "getting rid
of" the
Old System in order to impose it.
Second, all we should be looking for, I think, is to reach a state where
everyone is entirely free to pursue happpiness as they see fit. Period.
only limitation to that, very simply, is in the old adage: "Your right
to swing
your fist ends where my nose begins. " Period.

I can and shall say a lot more about this, and especially how I see Rave
(RC) as the only glue which can bind us all together for this transition
which I
am totally convinced is on its way, but the truth is that I'm not sure
capable enough on this internet biz yet to know for sure that I'll be
able to
get this out from my little screen here, so I'm going to stop now and see
if I
can successfully mail this.
If I can I wish everyone a very merry Xmas (or whatever you're looking
for - a
very quiet one, perhaps?) and I''ll get into this a lot more later.
Over and out and here goes.

house.54.76: Fraser Clark (megatrip) Sun 25 Dec 94 13:21

The above response was made by Fraser Clark, not David Dei, Sorry folks,
forgot to use the {c na} command!

house.54.77: David Dei (megatrip) Sun 25 Dec 94 13:53

I'll get Fraser to use the justify command too!

I suppose an even better analogy of the ineffectual use of sanctions and
international pressure would be Yugoslavia or even Somalia. Closer to
South Africa there's Mocambique which has been in a steady state of war
since 1975. Their recent truce and democratic resolve has come mainly as
the result of the drought - more people were dying from famine than war,
giving everyone a common enemy!
BTW I am a South African by birth and grew up in the State of Emergency.
Indeed the situation their was a complex one, but no more complex than
the situation here. South Africa is twice the size of Texas and a country
of 40million people, with 80% of the population urbanized. In a country
where the average age is 18, the task of changing the country was
shouldered by the youth. The major change that I experienced was
realizing that the old politics of our parents and grandparents (I have a
photograph of My grandfather and Dr Hendrik Verwoerd, architect of
aparthed, fishing! was a politics of fear and denial. The geography of
apartheid prevented even basic human interaction between people from
different classes or race groups. The struggle which had been going on
since the turn of the century had by 1985 been all but vanquished. To
give you an idea, not only had the security forces infiltrated all
echelons of the ANC and PAC, but had even succeeded in selling weopens to
the guerrillas - limpet mines and hand granades with short fuses! But
when all was nearly lost including hope that anything would change, an
interesting phenomenon. THE SUDDEN EMERGENCE OF A NON-RACIAL
ANTI-APARTHEID ALTERNATIVE CULTURE. By my reading, the result of two
distinct actions. One: the Afrikaner Youth discovered music and then
Africa, in the true sense. Two. The ANC in an initially machievellian
strategic move, allowed the formation of a non-heirarchical democratic
front as a means of supposidly co-opting the white youth and making
allies amongts other race groups. In essence the cat was let out of the
back both ways. - The evolution happened in South Africa precisely
because it was FUN. The alternative emerging non-racial culture held the
best parties! The freedom experienced on the dance floor (especially at
24 hour all week clubs like the Base in Cape Town) and the liberties
experienced at the many and wide ranging festive activities in which all
were welcome, literally demanded expression elsewhere. The
non-heirarchical non-racial CULTURE found form in the parliament of today
where by recent accounts, children play on the senate floors, what with
25 % of the MPs being women which brings this particular legislative body
up to the top 10 women represented bodies in the world! Draw your own
conclusions, but I for one can't neglect to say that it was all a whole
lot of fun.

house.54.78: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Sun 25 Dec 94 16:30

Fraser, where I simply can't agree with you -- and quite frankly, this is
the basis for a lot of the skepticism about "where you're coming from"
(as we used to say "back in the day") -- is when you proclaim that
"rave culture," whatever that is, is the *only* glue which can bind us
together for the transition.

Here, let me quote something from long ago 1993 which was written by a
wise member of the Net and reprinted on the J-card of the Connection II
tapes (which I still highly recommend for an insight into the breadth
and fun of house/techno/rave music):

all in all, rave is the greatest antidote yet for urban anonymity.
when you open your heart, and trust the whole group you dance with;
when you feel love with everyone, and they return it, a higher
vibration can be reached. dance is the supreme gesture of abandon,
the embrace of the moment, the abeyance of work and the annihilation
of guilt, neurosis, and the burden of the past. no one can write a
*rave manifesto* . . . there is no unified voice to rave culture,
and there are no rules. ranting is the opposite of raving. remember,
the scene is still growing. just keep it going, don't give up hope.
you might think to yourself sometimes, man, the scene is fucked, it's
dying, it's changing, it's shit. just hang in there and change with
the times. don't get caught up in the good old days. they were good
but keep the scene happening all around the world. to rave is to affirm.

A bit romantic, maybe, but don't we need romance in the age of untrammeled

I don't think there is any claim here that rave culture is some sort of
unique or "only" key to transformation. In fact, at least for me it's
always been a much more modest thing, and perhaps in that way more
transcending, because it really does depend on the inner change and
experiences each one of us undergoes, and to what extent we contribute
back, not to our predetermined part in some kind of master plan
motivated by manifestoes.

In my personal view, "rave" is dead, expired of a bit of neglect, a bit
of greed, and perhaps mostly because it was never destined to be a long-
term phenomenon. Something else has replaced it, we don't even have a
name for it yet and maybe it's better that we don't. But when it happens
the feeling is like in the paragraphs I quoted above, it goes beyond mere
club culture or ordinary music and dancing. It's not an experience I
can *force* on anyone, it's not one I'm really comfortable prosletyzing
at all. Instead, I would simply say, be open to the *possibility* of
a transformational experience, should one come along. And while it
may not come on the dance floor in some dark warehouse or sunny meadow
or foggy beach . . . don't be surprised if it does.

house.54.79: rave good good super good (mc2) Sun 25 Dec 94 18:21


house.54.80: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Sun 25 Dec 94 20:58


house.54.81: mirror, mirror, on the wall (mc2) Sun 25 Dec 94 22:49


house.54.82: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Mon 26 Dec 94 01:28

owlmed, how can you say "rave is just an escape," when I gather you haven't
even been to anything like one (although believe me, many events taking
on the "rave" name have been that in features but definitely not in spirit).
But if you have, would you agree that defining it as "just" that negates
a legitimately positive experience many of us have had? I find this to be
more than a bit perplexing.

I certainly agree that "rave" is an escape, but it can be many *kinds* of
escape, and it is certainly not *just* an escape.

house.54.83: David Dei (megatrip) Mon 26 Dec 94 14:23

Could people in this forum please try to keep up with the threads. We've
just had an entire rant attack against fraser for supposidly claiming
that "rave is the only thing that can save the world" and this after his
earlier statement to the contrary! here's a reminder
"One last point for tonight. What's all this stuff about me saying Rave
Culture is going to Save the Planet?! I've never said that. What I do
say is this: I don't see any other social phenomenon on the planet that
has any hope of doing it other than Rave Culture. It won't be the new Age
Movement and it certainly won't be te Born Agins and it won't be the
Libertarian Republiczns now, will it? Nothing else has the potential, the
method, the numbers, the raised expectations, the social cohesion and the
growth worldwide. Please note again I'm not saying RC will do it. I'm
saying that it's the only hope I can see AND THEREFORE THAT'S WHERE WE
MUST APPLY OUR ENERGIES. That's what I've been doing these last 7 years
or so, and I feel more hopeful and positive now than I did when this
thing started."

house.54.84: David Dei (megatrip) Mon 26 Dec 94 14:44

By the way, where does one go to rid oneself of the frustrations, anger,
fear and negative feedback of society for $0 to $25 per week? Where do we
get unconditional love and healing? When do we get past the lookyLoo's
(those evil discriminating fashion eyes)? How are we to be initiated from
ego worship to community service? Rave is group therapy masquerading as
entertainment. We might not have a manual for the brain, but we got
music. We might not have an ideology but we got love. I would rather be
naively divine than divinely corrupt.

"If we do not attempt the impossible, we will be faced with the

From my experience, the fall of the berlin wall, the fall of the cold
war, the fall of apartheid, they all looked like impossible dreams. Not
one political-economist predicted these events, 'cept for a whole bunch
of us mad dreaming visionaries. I put it to the vote: Who has more
credibility nowadays, the Empire maintaining Empericists or the
E-Magining Evolutionaries?

house.54.85: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Mon 26 Dec 94 15:38

This has once again become the Best Topic on the Well. Yay!

Let's separate some issues; bear with me here:

1) Whether or not F.C. claims RC is the only saviour is Not important.
When he does (he really does sometimes) it is quite reasonable to get
very angry and hostile, and I would particularly like to commend {duck}
for a very honest and terse venting there. Others here have written long
silly arguments that distract from the more important topic at hand,
which is really "Is Rave Culture a useful tool in saving the world?"

2) Arguments about whether or not we have succeeded or failed in areas
like Bosnia and Iraq are irrelevant. Everyone understands how much
success or failure we've got there. Validating (or invalidating) RC as a
phenomenon for change by noting how poorly some other efforts have worked
is not informative or useful. There are a potentially infinite # of
actions, movements, cultures...the fact that big international
military/diplomatic missions have a (very) inconsistent success rate does
not add to or detract from arguments about RC.

house.54.86: The Mojo Sloth (kevins) Mon 26 Dec 94 16:10

Except, Larry, when folk point to RC as a significant "evolutionary" force,
with marginal substantiation, then divert attention from the impact of RC by
bringing in events where RC clearly had no role, simply to point out the
equally obvious brutality of our current scenario.

There is a slight difference, semantically, between saying RC will save the
world, and saying the only force that can save the world is RC -- although
it might not do it, but it is only semantics. Either way suggests that
directing one's energies anywhere but RC is abandoning the only way to
positively impact the future. Now, if this isn't what those posting under
the (megatrip) banner actually mean, then they need to consider their words
more carefully.

"Is RC a useful tool in saving the world?" Asking E-Magining Evolutionaries
will probably result in a resounding yes. Asking Empire maintaining
Empericists will probably not matter. Asking those folks who try to make
themselves a hybrid would be more useful, and there the answer will not be
so clear.

It seems that RC is a useful tool in transforming an individual, if that is
what the individual is after. Transforming society, at a national or
international level, is another thing entirely, and relying on the beat of
butterfly wings to create tsunamis makes good rhetoric but leaves little

house.54.87: David Dei (megatrip) Mon 26 Dec 94 18:59

Yo, I agree that this has once again become one of the best (oh, hell, the
best! topics on the Well. But we need to get more clear on the basics.
Even when we genuinely attempt to discuss things intelligently, using
examples from History to support our points, we talk as if History was
just this more or less randomly happening collection of events and one-off
developments whose only connection or communality is some gradual
"progress". This is the historical method and it's analytical and it
definitely has its place in our quiver of tools with which to understand
Reality. But underatanding Reality is not the only thing we can do with
it. We can relate to it also, for exampe, or we can experiment with it,
or we can attempt to change it, say, or imitate it (as in VR) and so on.
But even in terms of underdstanding Reality the analytical method is not
the only tool in our possession, though it has been by far the most in
vogue for quite some time. If you study and accumulate only particles
you're going to miss waves. When we consider History from the level of
Human consciousness or Life Consciousness or simply Consciousness (giving
whales and dolphins their place, for example, and maybe perhaps even
possible off-planet alien consciousnbesses like mushrooms) I discern a
plot (as in a novel, not a conspiracy), a development, a Drama. I don't
yet call this development evolution, and certainly not progress because I
see a gradual dawning of a realisation in the Consciousness that we have
been on a wrong path for quite some time, and that this mistaken approach
has been becoming more and more dominant, and this is almost the opposite
of progress (unless you consider that more powerful technology on its own
is progress - it ain't, if the tool wielders get less conscious of reality
these tools will have been merely hastening their self-destruction,) It
will be evolution if, and only if, as this counterforce of doubt grows to
a critical mass, a hundredth monkey if you will, a change happens on
time.. And I don't see that as guarranteed, though the spread of RC gives
me more optimism than I have had since the Hippy Movement died or was
forced back underground. So the way a particular group responded to a
situation at a particular place under particular historical conditions
(say the breakdown of social controls) does not necessarily in any way
predict how we will react today. Today, as time runs out and the wrong
path becomes more and more evident to more and more people.
Today the frontline is in the Culture.

house.54.88: The Mojo Sloth (kevins) Mon 26 Dec 94 21:09

Let me guess, Fraser forgot to change the pseud again.

house.54.89: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Tue 27 Dec 94 00:13

Ever fear and hold in Profound Skepticism any One without
a Clear Grasp of the use of Basic Concepts.

house.54.90: The Mojo Sloth (kevins) Tue 27 Dec 94 07:13


house.54.91: Cosmic ranger, laugh at danger (mc2) Tue 27 Dec 94 08:15


house.54.92: John Draper (crunch) Tue 27 Dec 94 14:39

Hi, I just got on here... But somehow I get this stupid pager when I
read this conference. Is there a way to turn this stupid pager off?


house.54.93: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Tue 27 Dec 94 17:07

Try nopager

It's just the Unix more program, crunch, nothing special.

house.54.94: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Tue 27 Dec 94 17:59

That "plot" you are talking's a very nice idea, and it's the kind
of stuff my therapist uses to help make me feel better about death. But it
doesn't mean shit to me for determining what the real world is going to do.

Hey, even Charles Darwin said that the eye, "with all its minute
contrivances", almost disproves evolution; it is sooo incredible. Maybe
there is something more than evolution. I look in the chaos convergence for
answers there. But your "plot" idea is useful as rhetoric only.

I think that the usefulness of techno-shamanism and trance dance is similar
to that of prayer. I think our beliefs in it will be considered a "myth" in
the future.

house.54.95: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Tue 27 Dec 94 20:04

Actually, the evolution of complex structures like the eye is now considered
much less problematic, in part because of the insights from the area of
non-linear dynamical math (of which fractals and so forth are one aspect)
which have come along in the last several years.

There's also a shift away from the near-total focus on gene-based evolution
that swept through biology in the last 20 years. It's not that the tenets
of genetics and evolutionary biology are wrong, just that the whole picture
demands attention to other aspects. Not surprising, really.

I guess I'm not particularly concerned whether people believe in or act on
trace-dancing and whatnot. It's a cultural form tied to specific cultural
features that I find personally compelling. But it doesn't matter much to
me, really, whether "rave culture" is the "only" way to move forward in
History or however you want to put it.

What matters more to me, really, is whether people in general on this planet
are becoming more aware of themselves, their culture and their environment
and agreeing that things need to change. The particular insight of "rave
culture," one that Fraser and others have grasped so strongly, is that we
*can* reshuffle the deck of experience and behavior, so to speak, and find
or rediscover pathways which will tend over time to enhance rather than
inhibit life, including that of our kind, on this planet. This is what
Edward Wilson compellingly described in his book, "Biophilia
which I keep going back to as a very personal yet scientifically based
view of where we are and where we can be. This sort of thing is not
limited to the "personal" and/or "scientific" -- the same kind of
insights and motivating thoughts can be found in the writings and art
of many other people. Take your pick, starting with the Dalai Lama,
Ursula LeGuin (a couple of my favorites) and many, many more. Some of
that same feeling comes to me, at least, through music of a certain type.

house.54.96: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 28 Dec 94 01:35

By the way, I don't agree with owlmed that DOUG RUSHKOFF gets the facts
all right but the conclusions all wrong in his book CYBERIA about the
tecno-shamanic-futist New Edge rave scene - I do know what he means
though. I think what was happening is he sees the Cyberian (the potential
zippy , the Megatripolitan) in the people he describes better than they
actually did themselves. I've known Doug a bit over the years and he
definitely tends (or tries) to see the best in people - which doesn't mean
it's not there. I've heard him described as the Mark Twain of the New
Edge. Perhaps choosing to be a writer frees you from the responsibility
of ACTING in Real Life and therefpre you don't learn what shit can be dredged
out of people down here on the street level..
The book's definitely worth reading, however, as sort of a beginners
manual to help lay the groundwork for understanding Rave Culture's
fundamental potential for saving the planet. Sometimes you guys seem to
demand a brief description of how such a new culture can have this
potential when it took Doug 2 years of publisher's advance to research and
write a whole book that finally only scratches the surface of the Scene.
In fact I think I'll write to the publishers and ask them to finance us
impoverished zippies if we make it obligatory reading, huh?


house.54.97: Fuzzy Logic (phred) Wed 28 Dec 94 02:20

Um, that was me objecting to Cyberia. A very peculiar book overall, if
you ask me. It got so much of the detail right and so much of the meaning
wrong, plus it was impossible to tell where the author himself wanted to
stake his point of view. My own opinion, for what it's worth.

Quite frankly, the sfraves archives (at have far more of
value on insights into the transformational possibilities of "rave culture"
than all of Rushkoff's well paid work, particularly many of the postings
from early to mid 1992 when we were all getting to know each other and
had many fresh things to say. I certainly can't claim any particular
insights made at the time, I was still learning things from the inside
out myself, but many of the postings then, such as the one I quoted above,
were remarkably clear and visionary in their own way because they were
so grounded in personal experience and the lack of an established canon
of rave culture.

house.54.98: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Wed 28 Dec 94 06:06


house.54.99: murgatroid (mc2) Wed 28 Dec 94 08:35


house.54.100: Young Owl Hatching (owlmed) Wed 28 Dec 94 08:48


house.54.101: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 28 Dec 94 09:02

Darn you, Mark, stop harshing everyone's collective buzz by making
substantive comments! Don't you know the two are mutually exclusive?

house.54.102: That's MISTER Fag, to you, pal! (mc2) Wed 28 Dec 94 17:09


house.54.103: David Dei (megatrip) Wed 28 Dec 94 19:52

It's not in the trying, its in the doing.

In theory there may not be much difference between theory and practice but
in practice there certainly is.

I don't think we have much time to debate the pro and con of loving? What
I see as a basic software failure in the evolution of our species is a
growing incapacity for EMPATHY. Which is not to be confused with
sympathy. I might have sympathy for a cause but when a kid gets shot for
the misfortune of being from a family who are not the "right" color or
religion or political persuasion. I FEEL SOMETHING. I FEEL PAIN. and
because i am capable of feeling this pain, i am incapable of
participatiin any form of genocide, fratricide and death dealing. And
because we feel empathy, we can experience not only the pain, but the
love, so lets dance an unconditional love dance not motivated by ego nor
desire. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that its an
emotional thing. And emotions are prelingual belley ache based. If music
and dance can let our emotions fly, then surely there could be somthing
sublime, something not intellectual about dancing with strangers. If it
gets our love centers going, then we can all be heroes, and literally
love the EMPIRE away, watching the sorcery and trickery exposed and newly
vulnerable like that wizard of OZ. Bah Humbug? I thing not, because its
in the giving that we learn about the receiving.
Happy New Year folks
David Dei

house.54.104: sub zero (reid) Wed 28 Dec 94 22:28

man, these diatribes are giving me a headache.

house.54.105: Find your Inner Barney (rik) Wed 28 Dec 94 23:25

Save the planet? What arrogance. The planet will go just fine. Always has
and will until the sun cooks it. Of course, humanity may foul its own nest
to the extent that we all die off, but mass extinctions have happened before
and it didn't stop the planet. Let's talk about saving our own asses.

house.54.106: Wagner James Au (wjamesau) Wed 28 Dec 94 23:28

Emotion bereft of intellect is the wallowing of animals.

house.54.107: Larry Edelstein (ledelste) Thu 29 Dec 94 01:12

Wow, David Dei and Fraser Clark, you guys really don't spend a lot of time
on perspective. I think you are making the classical mistake of thinking
one's time is the only time. Humanity has not suddenly experienced some
loss of the capacity for empathy. It's been going up and down all the time.

We live in times where what we have built is capable of dominating us for
stretches. The fear generated by the proliferation of nuclear weapons gave
a sense of Armageddon; these devices, wrought by our own hands, could be
used to destroy ourselves. Our lack of consideration for our environment
has left us in a position where we believe our time may be running out.
Only here is our situation sincerely more at risk than before. But this
danger should not be described as you describe it. You should call it
for what it is: we've made some pretty big toys, and we've got to learn
to use them responsibly.

I mean, Christ, humankind has been vile to itself since day 1. Only in
this century has the technology (especially communications) needed to
commit brutality on a new scale, but the impulse has always been there.
Hitler could have risen a thousand times before, but he wouldn't have
been able to pick up the phone.

Your bombast is stirring but silly. Look at our world, without moralism,
and without romanticism, and see it for what it is.


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